The Vital Veda Podcast: Ayurveda | Holistic Health | Cosmic and Natural Law
The Vital Veda Podcast is a show for people who intend to live the most evolutionary life at their highest potential, while experiencing total wellness and bliss.
Our host Dylan Smith brings you the most inspiring interviews with thought leaders and experts from around the world in the fields of health, spirituality, personal development and natural law.
Dylan Smith is an Ayurvedic practitioner, holistic health educator and exponent of Vedic wisdom. He is devoted to learning, sharing and radiating this profound knowledge for everyone to utilise and enjoy.
Enliven your natural capability to tune into your own body and mind, awaken your instincts and engage in life in a frictionless flow.
Find out more at www.vitalveda.com.au
The Vital Veda Podcast: Ayurveda | Holistic Health | Cosmic and Natural Law
Mastering Ancient Vedic Art: Shilpa Shastra, Divine Forms and Sacred Proportions | Drdha Vrata Gorrik #142
In this episode, we delve into the ancient and sacred science of Shilpa Shastra, the Vedic art of sacred architecture and sculpture, with Drdha Vrata Gorrick, a master of this profound tradition. Drdha unravels the deep wisdom behind the intricate design principles that have shaped India’s temples and sacred spaces for millennia, exploring the divine proportions, symmetry, and ornamentation that elevate both the material and spiritual realms.
Learn how Shilpa Shastra integrates art and spirituality, guiding artists to create forms that not only reflect divine beauty but also awaken higher consciousness. From the precision of temple designs to the sacred art of visualization in Dhyanashloka, discover how these ancient techniques continue to inspire and connect us to the divine today.
This episode offers a rare and profound look at the intersection of Vedic wisdom, art, and spirituality - perfect for anyone seeking to deepen their understanding of India’s ancient cultural and spiritual heritage.
IN THIS EPISODE WE DISCUSS:
🖌️ Introduction to Shilpa Shastra: The Science of Sacred Art
🖌️ The Role of Divine Proportions and Symmetry in Sacred Art
🖌️ The Spiritual Significance of Vedic Temples and Iconography
🖌️ The Art of Visualisation: Dhyanashloka and Divine Form Creation
🖌️ Drdha's Journey to Mastering Shilpa Shastra
🖌️ Drdha's Mentorship and Teaching: Sharing the Wisdom of Shilpa Shastra
ABOUT OUR GUEST: Drdha Vrata Gorrik
Drdha Vrata Gorrick is an artist born and raised in the US and trained in the traditional arts in South India, bringing the best of both worlds to his creative practice. His work infuses new life into devotional art by combining religious styles from different parts of India while staying within a Vedic tradition.
Drdha believes that the skills we receive are gifts from god and that we can use to elevate our consciousness. He strives to create art that surpasses the mundane and is aided by his extensive training in iconometry, iconography, traditional painting and architectural design, as well as skills in lost-wax casting and clay modeling.
Drdha’s main source of inspiration is the timeless art and architecture that he experienced during his 15 years of travel and study in India. His commissions range from drawings, paintings and sculptures for homes and temples to managing temple construction projects.
In addition to his art projects, Drdha enjoys teaching art and sharing his knowledge with other enthusiasts through workshops, seminars and hands-on experimentation.
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This fortnight on the Vital Data Podcast.
Speaker 2:I studied with him about five years different techniques related to the Shilpa Shastras. So drawing, iconography, the measurements, proportions, ornamentation that you use in traditional art, traditional painting. And then later on I also learned sculpting. So I was learning how to make deities in metals.
Speaker 1:Favorite project you've worked on.
Speaker 2:It was a temple of Parvati Devi that I had designed in West Bengal. I got to be a part of the whole process, from the drawing of the murti, or design of the murti, to the temple design, which was something that I've never done before Wow and overseeing the whole construction process oh, my God.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the Vital Veda podcast. I'm your host, dylan Smith. I'm an Ayurvedic practitioner, analystic health educator and someone who is fond of the Vedas in all its ways, including the art aspect of the Vedas the architectural aspect of the Vedas in all its ways, including the art aspect of the Vedas the architectural aspect of the Vedas which we're going to speak about, and my guest today is my friend Dhritha Vrata Gaurik. He's an artist born and raised in US, trained in traditional arts in South India, infuses new life into devotional art by combining religious styles from different parts of India while staying within a Vedic tradition. Dhritha believes that the skills we receive are gifts from God and that we can use them to elevate our consciousness, and he strives to create art that surpasses the mundane and is aided by his extensive training in iconometry, iconography, traditional painting and architectural design, as well as skills in lost wax casting and clay modelling. Durinda's main source of inspiration is the timeless art and architecture that he's experienced during his 15 years of travel and study in India. His commissions range from drawing to painting sculptures, from homes and temples to managing temple construction projects. Dhritar is now a well-known artist in India and it's only rising, and I reckon if you had one of Britta's original artworks, that'd be an investment for the near future. In addition to his art projects, he enjoys teaching art, sharing his knowledge with other art enthusiasts through workshops, seminars, hands-on experience.
Speaker 1:Enjoy this podcast episode with Dridha Vrata and, if you appreciate this and share it, tag vital beta, tag the rata and share it around. And check out the show notes, as always, for some more information and resources. Enjoy. Welcome to the vital beta podcast. I'm so excited to speak to you today. I've got so many things I want to talk about being here in your hometown. Hometown is that where you're?
Speaker 1:from place where you live now it's your hometown, it's your home, not where you were born, there, but so many things about the Vedas, including the work that you do, the Vedic arts, the Vedic crafts, and just about this city that we are in. I've just had such an extraordinary time. I've been here 24 hours or so and I've already had like waves of Vedas come into my life. But we'll get into this. So this one's definitely for the Vedic nerds, and I would like to first start with your name. Sometimes I like those who have a Sanskrit name. Would you share what it means? Dhrita Vrata, if I pronounce it right, yeah, close.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it's dhrita vrata. Even my pronunciation is not that great. It's a Sanskrit word which means dhrita means very strong or firm, and vrata means vow. So when we're doing something with a very determined vow, then we say dhrita vrata with a very determined vow. Then we stayed through to have Ratha. So, yeah, my parents kind of found this name by chance in the Bhagavad Gita. They used to read Bhagavad Gita back in the 70s and 80s. A lot of people who were really alternative at the time. They were looking to the East for philosophy and inspiration and religion. So they found the Bhagavad Gita and most of me and my brothers have Sanskrit names oh beautiful.
Speaker 1:What are your brother's name?
Speaker 1:uh, there's Dhruva and Dhruva, yeah, and Devala okay, so two Dhruvs, yeah, like I assume the Dhruva is from Drishti like it's similar, like that vision, that determination, which is so relevant to your work, because you do Shilpa Shastra, which is like very precise art and that's great. I love it, and you can feel the Dhrdha, like that precision, that focus. And Navratri I love the name. Navratri is what we speak about on the Vita Veda community, like when we take a Vratra, a vow. What am I going to do this navratri? I'm going to, you know, for nine days, not eat chocolate or, you know, do sadhana more. I always think about yeah beautiful, yeah and um.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about, let's talk about this place. We're in now urupi, so I've been here 24 hours. This is in the state of karnataka in south india, and, like I've just come buzzing from from Durga temple up on a hill, but then I came across this um what honestly one of the most impressive initiatives I've seen in the terms of Vedic scholar kind of, or preservation of Vedas. It was a research and preservation center of Vedic manuscripts. Um palm leaves which he showed me. The palm leaves.
Speaker 1:They're beautiful, old, I don't know how old, at least 800 years maybe more and they're just preserving with a machine that costs 125,000 US dollars and just the amount of shastras and text. That's just one example in the city. And then a lot of Brahmins I've noticed, yeah, A lot of pure vegetarian restaurants. The place, the hotel I'm staying in, only uses coconut oil and ghee, like no cheap oils. They have a sign and like there's a lot of this Vedic reverberation and so, yeah, like and I assume it's linked to Sringeri, like I feel that that's coming from there as well.
Speaker 2:This is a math, like yeah, so there's some indirect connection there. Yeah, I mean, these are just a few of the reasons that attracted me and my family to kind of move back to Karnataka, specifically Udupi, because it's kind of like beaming with this cultural, spiritual, sastric kind of you environment. There are a lot of almost hidden places where you find a lot of shastra knowledge learning. They have an amazing Sanskrit college here where they have many people learning Sanskrit.
Speaker 1:Last night we just randomly walked into a Sanskrit convention where people from all over the world, especially all, over India. Different colleges and scholars came together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and even though it's such a small town, there's a lot happening that sometimes you don't even know about, like how we ran into this convention, and these go on on a regular basis. There's always some important people coming here, because Udipi is like this it's known in many places as a center of learning, a center of culture and music and arts and all these different things within this one small area. So you get a lot of people coming here from all over the world to visit, along with Sringeri and Hulur, mukambika temple, which is you can see that photo there that's Mukambika Devi. So these three towns are like the most popular in this belt of Karnataka, the Dakshin Kanada Very spiritual, very like full of Shakti and power. The Udupi Krishna temple, of course, is like the main center of Udupi, so that's where a lot happens the spiritual side, and also a lot of cultural activities happen.
Speaker 2:But there's so many other temples, like the Durga temple you went to visit is a very popular one. It's quite ancient as well. There are Shiva temples, there are Kartikeya temples, so there's a bit of everything here, and I think that's one of the things that also attracted us is that there's so much variety here, so you get something from everywhere. You get the culture, you get the arts, the learning so education is very important here in this part of Karnataka and, of course, the nature, which is something that you don't get in many other places. There's so much nature. You're surrounded by, of course, the ocean, the West Coast. You get the Western Ghats not too far from here. You have rivers and lakes all over, spread out throughout Dakshin Canada, and then, of course, the temples that are, you know, really nicely maintained. So these are many different reasons why we chose Udupi as our, you know, hopefully long term home or a second home.
Speaker 1:So yeah, that's, and the temples definitely have this different energy in this state compared like, as you were saying, it's not run by government, it's run by the religious organizations, or just the locals, the local people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, essentially Very much so.
Speaker 1:And they're very well maintained and they're yeah they're just. It's like a real home almost.
Speaker 2:Like it's a local temple. Like it's not a government systemized kind of organization really yeah, which people here in general are very open-minded, very welcoming. You know they're not so rigid or hard. You know they're very, very peaceful people. So you'll find that just coming here and having a very even a short visit, you're gonna feel like you're almost at home, like you said. So we felt that ever since the day we've come here, and now it's almost like day by day, we're more and more convinced that this is our home, awesome yeah, great.
Speaker 2:So this is not an ad for karnataka tourism, but yeah we're trying to like avoid that because we don't want too much tourism, but that's inevitable. But even then the tourist people come here for most of the same kind of reasons the beautiful nature, the temples, mostly for the temples actually. So they come, they see the temples and then they go back to their business. So it's okay.
Speaker 1:And even at our hotel there's so many people dressed in temple dress they're gonna like you can tell the people who are tourism coming, as tourists are really genuine definitely, but anyone listening to this podcast is going to be appreciated. Reciprocated this place, so let's get into. You mentioned you were just a little summary of you because you're living in the city. You grew up in the US. You've lived in Belgium.
Speaker 2:The UK.
Speaker 1:UK right. So I've kind of summarized, but I just want to, so we'll integrate a bit of your. Of course they know the Vedas is meditation, yoga, ayurveda. We talk about Vedic astrology, jyotish, which, by the way, I found some manuscripts in the library today on Palmleys, on.
Speaker 1:Jyotish, which was stoked because there was only one Ayurveda manuscript but a bunch of Jyotish and, yeah, vedic architecture we haven't explored. But that's a bit more well known than Shilpa Shastra and that's probably the least well known and our listeners, most of them, have never heard of it. So give us an overview of what is this Shastra, what is this branch of the Vedas?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I kind of came to this whole world of traditional Indian art or Shilpa Shastras, to this whole world of traditional Indian art or super sastras, by chance I was in the US and I was studying art. I mean, from a young age I was very attracted to art. Both my parents were pretty creative, my mom was an artist, my dad just got a very creative mind, and I was in art college. And when I was in art college I was getting sort of discouraged, you know, in art school saying that you know, modern art is the conclusion of art, that's the sum total of what is real art, pure expression, abstract art. And I kind of always had this feeling inside that art should be something that represents beauty, nature, spirituality, represents beauty, nature, spirituality. You know, these are the concepts that you see older art kind of depicting or, you know, very heavily inspired by. So yeah, I wasn't convinced and I was searching where could I go? I was looking at maybe European traditional art, but I wasn't very sure.
Speaker 2:But since I was brought up in a household that kind of was connected to Hinduism and India, we always had some kind of artwork at home, like old, you know, indian art prints, pictures of temples or books of temples. I would study through a lot of those and it really got me a kind of planted, a bit of a seed of some inspiration there. And when I was about I got invited to India for an apprenticeship. It was with an architect who was working on a temple construction project at the time in Delhi. So it was just a very random, you know, maybe not so random, but it just happened where I was invited for that and that was my first experience outside of the US and in India.
Speaker 2:It was very, quite interesting and also shocking. But I was like totally ready for something, you know, some change in my life and I wanted to see, to explore other cultures and things. So I landed in Delhi, I was working with this project, it was very nice and I got to explore many temples within North India mostly, and, I think, really Started my journey of, you know, discovering Indian art and temples and things like that. So I went back to the US, studied a little bit more in college. I was getting frustrated. My brother, he used to travel around South India a lot, so he was like why don't you just, you know, just join me, we'll travel around, let's go see, discover some temples together. And we were doing that. And then by chance we landed in Mahabalipur, which is where I ended up studying. That's on the southern coast of Tamil Nadu, near Chennai, and we went there because we wanted to have a break from all the travel and it's kind of considered like the Goa of the East Coast.
Speaker 2:It's like a place to chill and nice beaches, but they also have this whole other base, which is the traditional arts, and they have a school there where they teach traditional art and architecture. So as soon as I landed there I was like, wow, this is kind of what I was looking for. I wasn't really sure, but I could see so much art around me. It kind of what I was looking for. You know, I wasn't really sure, but I see so much art around me. It looked very, very technical, very precise, like you were saying, and that always threw me to traditional art that had some system behind it there was some.
Speaker 2:you know there are some proportions involved, some technical aspects of it and as I was looking around I found some art books. Can I show the books? Yeah?
Speaker 2:So when I was- looking around the town I came across these books, these exact books, and these are written by my teacher and they're written in Tamil, the local language. So I couldn't understand what it was. But when I was flipping through it and I was seeing all these amazing drawings about traditional art, vedic art, I was just so drawn to it. So then, um, you know, I looked at the back of the book. There's a picture of my teacher there and I was asking local people around like how can I find this, this person? And then a local person, he just said, oh yeah, he just lives. You know the next street, you can walk there, I'll show you where it is. So he walked us to the in my teacher's house and I met him and you know, I told him how much I really wanted to learn traditional art, and would it be possible?
Speaker 2:I don't know Tamil, and so first he sent me to the college. They have a college which is accredited to a local university and it's a five-year course where they teach you know a to z of traditional art, but because it's in the local language, you know the whole curriculum. Then the principal that suggested why don't you go back to this person you met? He's retired now and he'll teach you. You know, just ask him. So that's what I did. I went to him and I asked him if he could teach me directly, so that we had you know, we had a Guru Shishya type of relationship and I studied with him about five years directly. So I learned a lot. Maybe what I would have learned if I had gone to the college would have taken me much longer, but through him he was able to like, just give me so much information and teaching.
Speaker 1:What was his name?
Speaker 2:His name was Chirugyanam the Chirur. In Tamil I think it's like equivalent to Shri Chirurgyanam Shrigyanam something like that. So he was a very well-known person in traditional art in especially Tamil Nadu area. So most of the traditional artists from that side of India would have learned from him at least drawing and painting. So even Ganapati Sthapati at one point had learned some drawing from him.
Speaker 1:Who's a famous Vedic architect who's well known in the west because he's established a school where he taught one woman called Jessie, who's taught a lot of people. She's in the USS or Mexico or one of those. Yeah, I know Jessie.
Speaker 2:She's amazing, yeah, so he was a pretty well-known figure and he was also at one point the principal of the college there in Mahabalipuram when it had just started out. So previously it was like really there was a lot of activity in Mahabalipuram pushing toward this revival of these traditional art forms, so he was one of the pillars of that. So then my teacher had taught me different art forms or different techniques related to the Shilpa Shastras so drawing, iconography, the measurements, proportions, the different motifs and ornamentation that you use in traditional art and, of course, traditional painting. And then later on I also learned sculpting. So I was learning how to make deities in metal, so you sculpt them in wax and then there's something called the lost wax casting method. So I learned that as well.
Speaker 2:And then I touched a little bit on the architecture, but I was trying to keep a little more, you know, honing in on the, you know iconography, because that's something that really attracted me. There are a few aspects of the traditional art that really attracted me. One is that they're based on Shastra, which is something that's very important to me, so it has a system that's already in place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you explained, shastra.
Speaker 2:So Shilpa Shastra even though we say shilpa shastra but it's kind of like an umbrella term it's a series of different sources of information related to the art. Some of them are more in detail or more exhaustive. Some might just be a few quotes here and they're related to art and most of it will be related to, you know, say, painting, drawing, sculpture, some architecture and some sort of engineering, town planning and things like that. But when you get into the more architectural stuff then it's more vastu shastra related, so shastra means science, it's like yes, the vedic side where we have jyotish shastra, as you.
Speaker 2:You said Vastu Shastra, ayurveda Shastras and Rāsa Shastra, the Shastras of Asma, of ashes, right, so yeah, so then you find these sources of Śilpa Śāstras in all of the different śāstras, so you find them in the Vedas, you find them in the Puranas, Itihāsas, they're spread throughout. You know the different sources of shastras, so you find some really old manuscripts and you find some more recent sources of shilpa shastras that are written in local languages. For example, they have their own versions in Kannada and Tamil and all those languages. And then you also have some more recent artists who have written about shilpa shastras. So I try to find as many sources that I can and try to find inspiration and knowledge from those.
Speaker 1:Is jewelry also a part of it?
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah, very much yeah. So it sort of starts from. I mean, I guess the progression sort of starts from very simple shapes and forms like motif.
Speaker 2:That's kind of how you start to learn and then you end up in more detail, like you know, geometric shapes, you know, uh, an important aspect of traditional art is also, uh, symmetry. That's something that's heavily used in Shilpa Shastra. Symmetry is considered to be beauty in traditional art. And then they get into, of course, ornamentation, and I think ornamentation was the other thing that really attracted me to traditional art, because I really like to get into detail. And when I was in Western art school they were like no, no, no, throw out all the detail, just your form abstract. And I was like no, no, I like detail and I like to really like get into the detail, and they really encourage that in traditional art. That's kind of where the artists kind of shine is through their creative use of ornamentation. So that was another aspect. And then of course, the iconometry, which is the proportions, is something that's very, very central to Shilpa Shastra's.
Speaker 1:Mm, hmm, so you are a shilpin. Is that right? Is that how you? Is that the right terminology? I don't know if I would refer to myself like that, but yeah, I, I try to follow the shilpins as much as I can so when you were with your teacher for five years, was that, were you going back and forth between us or some other place, or you were there for?
Speaker 2:no, I was pretty much there the whole time. I would take occasional, like one week breaks to just, you know, go to different places. But for the most part I was there for five years and, apart from learning, you know, the, the drawing technique, techniques, and also, and like super shashas, I was also absorbing myself in the culture, in the temple forms. My teacher used to take me to a lot of temples and explain to me about the construction, the history behind the temples, who were the kings that were creating these temples and how, the different style differences of these dynasties. So if you look at the Chola art, it's slightly different. If you look at the, the Chola art, it's slightly different. If you look at the Hoi Xela style, it's very different, the different materials that they use. So I was really getting pulled into the whole environment of art. But that was, you know, like an added bonus to the whole experience, mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:I'd like to take a moment to talk about another branch of the Vedas and that is, of course, ayurveda. Ayurveda the science of life, and you have an opportunity to be an Ayurvedic therapist and Abhyanga therapist, specifically that Ayurvedic oil massage, which is so much more than a massage, and we're going to be sharing two courses in Australia in 2025 in Perth, february 2025, and Byron Bay area, july 2025 to be an Abhyanga therapist. And it is much more than a massage. It's a profound experience of healing and bliss and an expansive experience. And the difference with our Abhyanga course is, first of all, it's one week, not just a weekend course, and we have higher focused attention on the students. We intend to monitor each of you as closely as possible to support your individual learning needs, as well as refine and enhance your unique treating style. We also train in pairs, unlike many massage schools that group students in threes. We prioritize paired practice, emulating real clinical settings to build your confidence and precision, ensuring that you are fully prepared to deliver exceptional treatments. And I teach specialized, unique techniques that were passed down by my teachers, who are esteemed masters in marma, sukshma marma, which is the vital points and concentrated storehouses of prana, as well as panchakarma aua is premier detox and rejuvenation program. Even seasoned abhyanga practitioners will find this course invaluable. So if you want to offer this treatment to other people, hit up vitalvatorcomau forward slash courses and join one of the courses, because this was the gateway for my clients into deeper healing when I started my aerated practice. This was the gateway because they would experience profound bliss and then they would be further interested in what they can do for themselves. They would be further interested to consult me and take more action rather than just lying on a table and experiencing bliss. So check out vitalvedacomau forward slash courses.
Speaker 1:So you mostly draw divine forms, like you're drawing Devatas, these celestial beings, these gods, these goddesses, these devis. So that's like a very big responsibility. I mean you draw them and I'm here sitting in your studio and you've got amazing 3D murtis or statues of Hanuman and Narasimha Swami and which a famous sculpture has taken your work and made it into sculpture. So it's a lot of responsibility because these are whether it's a 2D or 3D expression of that phenomena of consciousness. Expression of that phenomena of consciousness. So how like? I mean you've been doing this, you're quite refined, but I mean now, or maybe previously, like did you feel in pressure or any like edge, like I am I'm expressing it a Devata, I'm almost like imitating it. So how like, how is that for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's this famous quote from, I think, atreya. Yeah, I have that, atreya.
Speaker 1:Brahmana. I'll read it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, read it.
Speaker 1:It says Shilpani works of art made by man are imitations of divine forms, and Shilpa artisans, in tune with divine rhythms, produce visual interpretations in spite of the limitations of the human personality. Yeah, that's a very Abram Anna yeah.
Speaker 2:so basically saying that even though we are limited as humans, that we can't really we don't have that access to the divine directly, but through what Josh trick system is in place through superukrashvara, we're able to use this system to create these divine forms and, of course, with our own some level of veneration and appreciation of the art form and some spiritual, our own spiritual process also being important to that whole process.
Speaker 2:Then we can at least try, make that effort to make these divine forms and, of course, after that divine form is created, like you were saying, that whole pressure is there to create this form. That's the amazing thing about this traditional art and the Shilpa Shastra is that I think, is very amazing that you can start with a blank sheet or a blank stone or whatever it is, something completely abstract, and create a divine form that ends up in a temple and it's being worshipped for, you know, hundreds of thousands of years and, even though that would usually create a lot of ego in that person, that, oh, I have made this Somehow. I find, when I meet traditional artists, the kind of people that I've met, who are very skilled and who've made murtis that are being worshipped for a long time, they seem to have the opposite attitude. They always seem to think that it is not me that's creating this form.
Speaker 2:It is God's energy or God's gift to me, and I'm just like a machine, or yeah, by a medium to make this.
Speaker 2:So I I try to stay in that same mindset that ultimately, these you know, talents that we have are coming from god or they're inspired by god. So I try to keep a mood that respects that and I'm just a tool that is making these things, and a lot of times I even feel like it's not me making it. It just kind of happens on its own, which is quite interesting, even though there's a lot of you know, experience involved and all that.
Speaker 1:But I feel like that divine energy is very important as well beautiful and will you give us an example of some shlokas, or don't? You don't have to recite them off my heart, but just to be like, yeah, what is it? Is it like, okay, Ganesha's trunk should be three times the size of his arm? Like what is the shlokas?
Speaker 2:kind of thing tell to my students and other people who ask about Śrīla Pāśārāṣa. So there's this drawing that was made by Leonardo da Vinci, a very famous drawing of Vitruvian man right, the man within the circle, and that Vitruvian man was inspired by Vitruvius, the architect who wrote many books about temple architecture in European style, and in there he puts a lot of emphasis on divine form, both in the temple and in the body, the human body, and how they're linked. Actually the body is like a reflection of the divine. So in there he also talks about these divine proportions of men and that's where he, where Da Vinci, got this, these proportions. So when he's describing that, he's saying that the man's outstretched arms is the same measurement as the height.
Speaker 2:And in Shilpa Shastra we have the same exact description. In one of the Shilpa Shastra mentions it's known as the Hamsa Purusha. So it's said that his height is the same as his length of the arms outstretched and it's meant to be 108 by 108 units, right, and and it goes under detail of, like you know, the different measurements of the face and the body and things like that, and that's meant to be the perfect proportion of men. So you can see, there's like some parallels there, but how precise they were in their descriptions and how technical, you know, with the measurements. There's so much detail in these measurements that they even talk about like how many eyebrows are in the eye.
Speaker 2:The smallest measurement. The form of measurement they use is called the paramanu, which is like unseeable by the eye, it's like an atomic particle. That's their first measurement. So what kind of people must have you know? Know, they must have had such a brain to be able to come up with these units. And then from there they go to different measurements based on nature and you know organic.
Speaker 1:It's similar to ayurveda measurements like how much quantity to give this oil in enema. It's like an anguli, like what you can fit in the palm of your hands right that's relevant to that patient. It's like their palm of their hands. Whether it's a big, big man, then his palms are larger quantities. Or like how thick, how long should the tube go up the rectum? And it's like as much as that person really, it's proportion, very simple and practical measurements.
Speaker 2:Right, they were using whatever they had at their disposal, whatever was there in nature and a lot of the art forms are inspired by nature as well, because that's what they had around them. So, you see, all the ornamentation is flowers, lotuses, animals and all these creatures that they got obviously inspired by through nature.
Speaker 1:I want to speak about the different expressions of these gods and goddesses and these devatas, because your art is very symmetrical, it's very proportional and when you were saying, how about, when we were talking about pressure, do you feel pressure? Then I just thought about all the gods we've been seeing and like they're all like natural rocks that are just, you know, not at all proportional, at least to my perspective, because they're just. Some of my favourite most powerful temples are like Suay Mbur, which is naturally formed, so it's like Hanuman happens to be in the form of a rock, naturally. Or Ganesh If all the decorations were not there, it'd be very hard to see that's Ganesh and that's not at all proportional. And looking in your room, most of this art is yours, but then we've got this art I I don't know how I would explain this Ganesh, but it is quite pro, definitely, quite proportional.
Speaker 1:It is proportional but, there are a bunch of things which which aren't so so yeah, yeah, so that?
Speaker 2:no, that's a good question, because there's um, there's even a description, or there's a verse in one of the Silpa Shastras that talks about basically the conclusion. At the end of this Shastra it says that even though we have all these techniques that we've described we have, you know, iconometry, all the measurements, proportions, all these different details, all these different details the goal of that art form is to create a connection between that person who's viewing the artwork and the artwork itself. You're creating this interaction and that interaction should be something that touches the person from inside right. You should have that. I mean, this goes for not just visual arts but also dance and music. You can have a very technically perfect dance form and music, but unless it has that, that connection to the audience, where the audience feels moved, it hasn't really done its. You know, perfection, you know.
Speaker 2:So that's kind of the conclusion that we should use the technical aspects, the proportions and all that to help beautify the form. But ultimately, the goal is to make sure that the you know, the devotee and the god there's a connection there and that it has some meaningful connection. So we see a lot of beautiful art forms that may not be conformed to. You know these kind of like, even if you look at some painting styles like Orissa, patechicha or Madhubani is a very popular art form. Now it's from, you know, madhubani area in Bihar and it's very disproportionate, but it's so beautiful. People love it because it's just really connected with the people.
Speaker 2:Somehow it's almost abstract, but the colors and the content is very beautiful. So it's done. It's doing its part. It's just a different method to what you practice, yeah, but when it comes to like making deity forms, generally it's preferred, or you know said that you should follow the Shastra as much as possible when you're creating a new form. When it comes to, you know, self-manifest deity, that's beyond, you know, human, you know connection, or beyond the touch of human. You know that's directly from god and, yeah, we can't question that.
Speaker 1:so you do come across art or murtis and say and think like, oh, that's not, that doesn't have that shakti, because I do, like, especially in the street, you know the market, the two dollar $2 ones. But beyond that, like do you, because one is of course the proportions, or the, the, even the objects, or his foot should be there, not there, right, but also the Shakti yeah, yeah, there's two aspects.
Speaker 2:One is a technical aspect, yes, the craftsmanship or the techniques that were used, and the other is, you know, obviously the connection and, yeah, I've techniques that were used and the other is obviously the connection. Yeah, I've seen a lot like that and, generally speaking, they're more commercially made.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:So a lot of the murtis that you find nowadays are made in factories. They're just made, they make one model and they just make multiple copies of that same one. And as you get more copies you lose that original quality of the figure. And traditionally, when you're making a murky, that murky is a one-off piece and it's almost compared to your baby. Your baby is your baby. There's thousands or millions of babies in the world and they all might be the same age or gender or whatever, but that baby is unique to you. You will never get a copy of that. So when you're making a murky, that, so when you're making a morty, especially when you're doing the casting in metal, that's one. One good example is when they have the mold that they're making, it's actually called a womb a.
Speaker 1:What a womb.
Speaker 2:Okay, like the mother's womb so the whole process like giving birth so when they break open that mold, then the child or the morty comes out and they clean it up and then that becomes and you can never make an exact replica of that so. But when you're doing this commercial, you know making of any art form that generally you lose the quality and you lose that power that shakti that you would get normally.
Speaker 1:So you've got a couple, as I said, a Hanuman and a Narasimha, a Murti in wood, you said, by one of the top wood carvers in India, which were based off your work. So how did he do that? Did he just look at it and carve it? Or can you also just do people draw it and then just place it on a piece of wood and then start how? How would it work to?
Speaker 2:yeah, so generally the drawing is just a reference for the sculpture. So drawings weren't as important in traditional art as an art piece on its own. It was used as a reference to either make a painting or a sculpture. So usually I either draw the reference drawing to the same size or to scale and then I can like now I can scan it in, you know blow it up to the size that it's going to be on wood or whatever material, and then I'll send it to the carver as a print and then he can usually they, if it's wood or stone, they just stick that onto the wood they make their outline they transfer it and then they'll have the print out as a reference so they can measure from.
Speaker 2:So it's just a reference and of course, in this case he really followed the reference really well with his own style. But not all you know carvers are able to do that. But yeah, generally speaking, that they either do their own sketch and then they, you know, carve it from there so that's the starting point so tell us about the workshops that you offer.
Speaker 1:You teach this online, all online right uh, so I have both.
Speaker 2:I've been doing more online sessions like short-term courses, and then also I have a full curriculum course, two-year course, where I teach you know from a to z of whatever, basically whatever I learned, I teach them and I have many students from pretty much all over, most of them from the US and India, and yeah, so most of it's online for the convenience sake. People can be wherever they are in the world and just log on and follow along. I have my setup with an overhead camera and I explain a lot of details before I get started and then I just walk them through the process, and more recently, I've been trying to do more in person, like you know, direct workshops or teaching. Well, actually, the studio that I'm in right now was given by one of the, you know, local gurus in Udupi for the purpose of me teaching to the local students, the idea being that reconnecting the local youth to some of their cultural things the arts, the music and dance.
Speaker 2:So that was kind of the purpose of this and of course it's nicer to have that direct connection, because there's a lot more that people can learn through the direct. I mean, I think, through my guru. I learned so much more being with him, you know his style, his likes, his dislikes, his, um, you know, his like in music and dance and all these different things kind of rubbed off on me without me even knowing so many people. When they see my drawings who are familiar with my teacher, they know that.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, that's yeah, that's, you know the student of Mr Chittanyama Wow.
Speaker 1:Beautiful. I want to take a moment to step away from the podcast and acknowledge the other avenues of knowledge and wisdom that we share at Vital Veda. We, of course, have Instagram and Facebook, where we're sharing quite frequently, but also I want to share with you about the newsletter. This is a place where we share articles, updates, knowledge, events and special offers, something that we don't share on social media and on public platforms. So if you go to vitalbettercomau and click at the top subscribe to the newsletter, you will be able to be updated with some more refined content, with some more specialized and personal wisdom and personal messages from me and my team throughout our journey, and I would love you to join there and be part of the more in our community in a more intimate way. So sign up to the newsletter at vital betacomau. You'll see at the top bar. I have a few rapid fire questions.
Speaker 2:Okay, I haven't done that. Whatever comes to mind. Whatever comes to mind.
Speaker 1:Okay, the first one is kind of, and you know it can be longer for me, but it's a question we ask for every guest and that's what is your dinacharya, what is your daily routine, or what is your morning, particularly the morning daily routine in sadhana.
Speaker 2:Well, it starts with a puja, usually very simple. I don't have much and you know, of course, paying respect to you know, gods, goddesses and gurus and then some kind of drawing. So my teacher used to always say do every day some drawing, keep the practice, doesn't matter how good you think you are, but practice every day. So, some drawings, some, you know, whatever I can do on a daily basis.
Speaker 2:Do that in your home rather than the studio no, I mostly come to the studio because the studio has that environment that's more conducive okay, favorite project you've worked on yeah, so the main, I think the one that I really enjoyed but which, which was also challenging, it was a temple of Parvati Devi that I had designed in West Bengal. It was exciting because I got to be a part of the whole process, from the drawing of the murti, or design of the murti, to the temple design, which was something that I've never done before Wow, and overseeing the whole construction process and being there for the installation of the DD and everything.
Speaker 1:So they didn't have an architect.
Speaker 2:No, they didn't. So I was like the only one in that whole area who had some connection to traditional art. So the person who actually like, encouraged me to design. He was a local, pujari, and he wanted something that stood out, that was traditional.
Speaker 2:So, there were a lot of aspects of the project that were very challenging. Like we used terracotta to clad the whole building, so each terracotta tile was hand carved and then burned. So it was something I wasn't familiar with. So there was a lot of materials I was using that I didn't have experience with. But it was like a challenge that I was like, okay, let me just see what I can do. And it turned out really nice. It was a very small temple so it was relatively easy to put together and just seeing that process from blank paper to a deity- that's being worshipped was quite exciting.
Speaker 1:What an honor, huge. What's the most popular piece that you've sold?
Speaker 2:Oh, definitely the Tanventari. Ah, I knew it so yeah, that's how I came across you actually Probably Instagram. Yeah, oh, definitely the Dhanvantari.
Speaker 1:Ah, I knew it yeah, so yeah, like that's how I came across you actually probably Instagram.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And he's got this phenomenal Dhanvantari. Thank you and it's. I guess it's like you have. I'm looking now. You have Hanuman Garuda. Is this Parvati Lakshmi?
Speaker 2:So that's done by another artist. But yes, yes, okay. And then Dinesh, the one on the bottom.
Speaker 1:But Dhammantari is, I guess, less known, less popular and not for those who are listening. Dhammantari is the lord of Ayurveda or the god of Ayurveda, and it's not easy to find good images of Dhammantari.
Speaker 1:So I guess when people find yours they're pretty blown away, like I was the of Dhanvantari, so I guess when people find yours they're pretty blown away. Like I was the Jaluka, the leech, so in Dhanvantari there's four. There's the conch shell, which represents in his four hands, the conch shell, which represents the sound, the knowledge of Ayurveda, and the chakra, which is the disc of Vishnu, which is the weapon to kill the rakshasas, the demons, all the diseases, and then the amrit kalash, which is the pot of immortality, and the jaluka, which is the leech, which a lot of dhanvantari art does not have the jaluka instead it has leaves or herbs, but it's actually jaluka, right.
Speaker 1:So that's kind of when that how we're talking about. Oh, when you see something, it's like, nah, that ain't right. So that was great and it was an. It's a nice fat leech, which I like. I've seen some small leeches.
Speaker 2:I've seen a few of the big ones too. So I was kind of inspired by that. I think I even went to an Ayurvedic hospital and I asked them can I see the leeches? And they were showing up. Wow, they're that big.
Speaker 1:That's scary, you know. Yeah, there's different types, but yeah, actually that was.
Speaker 2:It became the most popular artwork, actually through an Ayurvedic doctor in Udupi, which is kind of funny. That's how my link with Udupi or coming back to Udupi started, Because I had done this, I was in Europe and working and he had contacted me through Instagram. He's like I want a Dhanvantari print and I want it big. I was like, oh really, how big he's like six feet, you know, as big as this canvas. I was like, wow, that's the biggest print I've ever made. And then he installed it, you know, right in this entrance of his clinic and he had some people come in. That was like the, I think, first post that I'd done on Instagram. That just went viral like crazy viral, and it wasn't like anything really special of photos or anything, but I think it was just a very unique image and not many people have seen a Dhamm you know, at a clinic, and I think also in india, they've kind of they've lost this tradition of showing images, like you know, nice artwork in walls and stuff, right.
Speaker 2:So you generally see a lot of hospitals without any artwork, very like cold, you know kind of empty walls. So there are some people who are a little more like you know aware, and they're like, okay, we should actually put something, if anything, at least tanvantari, in a you know kind of empty walls. So there are some people who are a little more like you know aware, and they're like, okay, we should actually put something, if anything, at least Dhanvantari, in a Ayurvedic clinic.
Speaker 2:I mean he's like the main person. So yeah, that kind of started my you know, popularity with Dhanvantari and also connection with Udupi and that's another amazing thing about Udupi is the art like in the cafe, in the temples.
Speaker 1:There's really really beautiful yeah ancient as well, art. But you know, you go to some temples and it's like a cheap, cheesy kind, of like two dollar shop kind of art piece, but yeah of the god which and they're selling it again for 50 cents or whatever. But yeah there's some really special things that like are like wow, I want that and I did that once at a temple.
Speaker 2:I saw something else anyway and you went to the Hasta Shilpa also, which had a lot of nice art.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's another thing I forgot to mention like in Udupi, there's a preserved village of. That is all vastu Vedic architecture and and so much a traditional shilpa, it's a hasta shilpa.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, it's the houses of the shilpa, the crafts and arts and yeah, what they did is they went to different places in Karnataka and they Relocated these homes that were going to be, anyways, demolished. Wow and they took them piece by piece like a puzzle and then rebuilt them here in Manipal. Amazing to like, like the detail, everything that was there they kept in the Brahmin's house they've got temples, they've got church, they've got blue Muslim house.
Speaker 1:They thought a bunch of the 24 structures at least. Yeah, stuff that is worth going to be alone for that. She into into these things. So tell me more about Dhanvantari. So how did you like approach it? How did you? Did you look at the Shastras on? So there was information on Shubha Shastra on Dhanvantari.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so they're what are called Dhyana Shlokas. So Dhyana Shlokas are verses that are like descriptive, so they talk about the form of that god or goddess, their attributes, their colors. You know who are the people around them, what's the environment there, and you know maybe even what the mood is, how to worship them and things like that. So, generally, most traditional artists consult these Dhyanashlokas, and the Dhyanashlokas are all over. You find them in many sources.
Speaker 1:They're easily accessible.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're pretty accessible. So you can find them in many sources. They're easily accessible. Yeah, they're pretty accessible, so you can find them. What I generally tend to do more recently is I've been consulting with a priest who has a lot of shastric you know knowledge, so I'll say, okay, I have this form that I want to make and I want to have a dhyana shloka, a proper dhyana shloka, and then he'll source that dhyana shloka and give it to me in sanskrit and english, so with the dhanvantari.
Speaker 2:Actually it was the I think it was the Ayurvedic doctor that I made the print for he had given me some description right you know, about the leech and all these different things, and he also told me about the color of the body and all that.
Speaker 2:So when I came to Udupi, there's a shashtra that was written by Madhvacharya that I you, you know came to discover and it has a lot of jnana shlokas in it. But he also talks a lot about Sivashastra, which is quite interesting because I, like Madhvacharya, he's in the Vaishnava line, which I'm in, and he was very knowledgeable, so he compiled this shastra. I think it's called the I'm losing the word now but there are all these shlokas and there's one particular shloka on dhanvantari which when I read it I was really surprised, because it's very um unique as a dhyana shloka because although it talks about his form in quite a lot of detail, it has this other aspect which talks about how the devotee connects with that form of dhanvantari. So it says how dhanvantari is.
Speaker 2:His form is within the moon right, wow and you know the color of his body and things like that, and that form is within the heart of the devotee and then dhanvantari is standing outside of that devotee and looking at his form within the heart. It's like quite an abstract thing, but I mean, I think if the translation is done right it would make more sense. But it's very. There's this whole devotional aspect that he goes into and it's a very unique. I'll have to share it with you.
Speaker 1:It's very nice yeah.
Speaker 2:So I'm planning to make another painting based off of that. Yeah, wow. So I'm planning to make another painting based off of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow that Dhyanashloka. Wow, wow, wow. And does that? Does that Dhyana like meditation?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the traditionally the Dupins or the artists would go into a sort of meditation, right, right, they would read the Dhyanashloka or recite it, right, and then they would, you know, put that image in their mind already, right, right, mind already, so that that image is already there. Because, anyways, that's something that artists do. They already have a mental image. They just have to figure out how to get that into a physical form, whether it's paper or sculpture. So it's about creating that awareness of the form already in the mind and meditating on it and, you know, seeking the blessings of that form to be able to come through your hands. And then you start the process. So it's not like you just sit down with a pencil okay, I'm going to make this form and like you know, do it according to my imagination.
Speaker 2:No, there was meditation. There was a system of proportions in place. There are all these um aspects of that form that have to be kept in mind their attributes, their hands. What are they holding in their hands? What's's the symbolism behind them? Why do they have these different objects in their hands? Right, like you were saying about Dhanvantari's four hands? So, and those people who know about these things, they can read the murkhi much better and relate to it. So, and each form would have a specific purpose as well. Right, so you might have 32 forms of Ganesha, for example. So each Ganesha form might be for a specific purpose as well. Right, so you might have 32 forms of Ganesha, for example? So each Ganesha form might be for a specific purpose, right?
Speaker 1:It might be for Different expressions of Ganesh consciousness.
Speaker 2:Yeah, maybe for that type of devotee who worships this type of form, then they would have a different form for that. Multiple arms would have different reasons for that. So all these things are taken into account before you start the form.
Speaker 1:Does the shloka from Madhava on Dhanvantari, is it as technical or has that much guidelines for the proportions? Because, other than the energetic unique quality which you mentioned, is there also those technical aspects which you did with the first dhanvantari.
Speaker 2:So there's two things. One is the Dhyana shloka, which is more a general description of the form, right? So mostly traditional artists would already know how the form would be made by practicing Silpa Shastra art. And then you have the technical parts of Silpa Shastra, which go into detail about different proportions. So there's what's called the talamana. Talamana is the term of the proportions that are used and tala is basically the length of the palm. Tala just means clapping or a beat or the palm, so it's used in music and dance as well. So there's some parallel between this Thala scale.
Speaker 2:A friend of mine, actually Vinay from the US. He's a classically trained Carnatic music musician and art nativ dancer. So we had a dialogue together. It was like an interview type of situation where we were talking about the relation between Thala in music, dance and visual arts. It was quite nice. So that Thala-a mana scale has different levels or different categories of measurements based on that god or goddess. A good example is, like the highest level, the dasa tala, is called ten talas. That is usually reserved for the three murti Brahma, vishnu and Shiva or their wives or you know, the gods on their level type of thing. So they have different measurements based on those you know category of gods and goddesses.
Speaker 1:So and last question, on the Dhanvantari, do you know how many you've sold approximately? I'm just curious to see how many Dhanvantaris are out there like this far.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think through Ayurveda clinics I must have sold and given out maybe hundreds.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean so cool Within.
Speaker 2:Udupi itself, there's at least five or six clinics that have or doctors that have the Dhanvantaris.
Speaker 1:All right. What comes to mind when I ask favorite temple?
Speaker 2:Oh, definitely the Tanjore temple, the Brihadishara Temple. This is a temple in, you know, south Tamil Nadu and it's become more famous now. It's a massive structure. They have a vimana, or the dome on top of the temple. That weighs I forgot how many tons crazy. And the tower is so tall that people are still baffled by how they were able to get that dome on top, a solid stone on top of that height. So that's definitely one of the ones that I've been to many times and it's still. It's still amazing to look at and study the art, the paintings, the architecture.
Speaker 1:Every aspect is just out of this world yeah, those tamil nadu temples have that unique aspect where they're extraordinary, yeah, and like that it's tanju, right like yeah I think there's even been national geographic or something like yeah, how did they put that kind of similar to the pyramids or even more baffling than the pyramids yeah, more but those are like a whole lot and they, they weren't destroyed, or they weren't destroyed as much and they're huge and they're grand and yeah, it's.
Speaker 2:I think also because, um, these kings at the time were really supportive of the arts and they wanted to always like, I think, push the boundaries a little, like to see how far, like how far they could go with, you know, creating such beautiful structures. Another example would be like Ellora Kailashana temple in Maharashtra, where they cut the temple out of the rock like out of a hillside basically it's madness, because they're cutting this temple from the top down, which is very it's almost impossible to do you know Favorite thing about living in India?
Speaker 2:Okay, there's a lot. Well, I would say the first thing would be the spirituality. That's something that really, you know I connect with a lot and, of course, the art. These two things are the two.
Speaker 1:Yeah, awesome. Some questions from our audience. Someone's asking about the use of imagery or these figurines of deities as personal adornment. Of imagery or these figurines of deities as personal adornment now, or like you could ask what are? What's a responsible thing to do with these? I'm a Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. My teachers teacher always said if you have a multi or an idol over one inch, you got a worship, you got to do puja to it. You can't just have it in decoration of your home and that's's one perspective.
Speaker 1:So there's, I think, the appropriateness or the responsibility of having this energetic expression of a consciousness state there. Okay, we can't put it on the floor, we shouldn't be naked in front of it. There's so many different things like that. No, that's a good question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's something I get asked a lot, especially in regards to um tattoos yeah, that's it personal adornment, yeah so tattoos is something I get asked a lot about whether they can use my art as tattoos, and I generally discourage, like I I respect everybody's you know position on it, but my belief is that anything any uh, you, you know depiction of God or divine form, it has to be treated as such right.
Speaker 2:So if we're putting it on our body, if we take, for an example, if we're actually holding a murky in our hands, where would we go with that murky? If we consider that murky a divine you know depiction of God, we wouldn't want to take it in you know the toilet with us. We wouldn't want to like to put it on the floor, things like that. So a certain level of adoration.
Speaker 1:You wouldn't want to be abusive with it in your hands. You wouldn't want to abuse someone.
Speaker 2:You wouldn't want to be violent.
Speaker 1:No one's perfect.
Speaker 2:These things come up, these stresses come up. I get a lot of people who argue about it, like, oh, I feel like I'll be more devotional if I have narasimha on my back. Okay, you can believe that, but you could also be as devotional or more devotional by having a murti of narasimha in your you know puja room where you worship him and you clean him. You know there's some respect there, you know, like you know you're you're doing um worship to him, but I think it's important to have some level of respect. So anything that is divine should be treated as divine. So try to keep clean around it, try to give respect to it.
Speaker 1:Pretty much what you, what you were saying, yeah yeah, yeah, I think the person who's asked questions is a jeweler and they have specific about those.
Speaker 2:But I don't know how much you know. And then Well, jewelry is something that you do see in India, like there are people that wear jewelry.
Speaker 1:Probably the most all the countries in the world. They love their jewelry more than anyone.
Speaker 2:So I think with jewelry, maybe there's a possibility of being a little more respectful, because you could take that jewelry off and before you go in the bathroom or something like that, and and you could also use that like some people wear shalagramas on their neck and then they take it off and do puja, so you could still have some kind of, you know, respect, and there are a lot of traditions where people still wear jewelry, you know, related to gods and goddesses. So but again, the same thing is to try to keep cleanliness, keep respect and yeah, yeah, cool.
Speaker 1:All right, that's beautiful. Um, I think that's good for now and if people want to learn more about the vratas work, you can look at divya kala. That's d-i-v-y-a kala k-a-l-a dot com, and there do you have information on workshops if people wanted to join yeah, yeah, I do.
Speaker 2:I have a have a section on teaching where I have short courses and the full course as well.
Speaker 1:And then the Instagram is.
Speaker 2:Druda D-R-D-H-A underscore art.
Speaker 1:Yeah, great Cool. Thank you so much for having me Noodle P and being a nice host.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me on your channel. And it was really nice to catch up with you and try to share some of my knowledge with everybody.
Speaker 1:I look forward to the second Dhanvantari and everything else that you do.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much.