Building Emotional Health in Children: Strategies for Healing and Growth with Aware Parenting | Marion Rose, PhD #139

Curious about how tuning into your child's emotions can transform both their world and yours? Join us for an eye-opening conversation with Marion Rose, PhD, a pioneer in Aware Parenting. Discover how this revolutionary approach goes beyond fulfilling basic needs and delves into the emotional depths of children, fostering their healing from stress and trauma.

In this episode, Marion reveals the power of emotional expression—be it crying or laughing—in nurturing a child's well-being and fostering a more compassionate society. We explore how attentive parenting can uncover deep-seated emotions and the vital role of physical closeness and eye contact in comforting infants.

We’ll also delve into culturally inspired parenting practices and how adapting them to our unique contexts can enhance our approach. Marion’s personal stories and practical advice offer valuable insights for parents seeking a more empathetic and effective parenting style.

From setting loving limits to recognising the difference between hunger and emotional needs, this episode is packed with valuable lessons for every parent. 

Don’t miss this chance to learn from Marion’s expertise and get a sneak peek into her upcoming book, "Sound Sleep and Secure Attachment with Aware Parenting." Tune in to transform your parenting journey and enrich your family dynamics.

IN THIS EPISODE WE DISCUSS:
👶 The Core Principles Of Aware Parenting 
👶 The Impact of Emotional Expression In Children & Its Role In Stress + Trauma Healing
👶 How Crying, Laughter, and Other Emotional Releases Contribute To A Child’s Well-being
👶 The Importance of Physical Closeness & Eye Contact in Comforting + Connecting With Infants
👶 Common Misconceptions About “Overtired” Babies & How to Address Their True Needs
👶 The Role of Attentive Parenting In Identifying & Addressing Deep-Seated Emotions
👶 The Influence of Indigenous & Cultural Parenting Practices on Modern Approaches
👶 How Adopting Aware Parenting Methods Can Enhance Overall Family Dynamics
👶 The Transformative Potential of Listening To & Truly Addressing a Child’s Emotional Needs.

ABOUT OUR GUEST: Marion Rose, PhD

Marion Rose PHD, Marion is an Author, Podcast Host, Psychospiritual Mentor, Level Two Aware Parenting Instructor and creator of The Marion Method for Psychospiritual Development, Parenting, and Entrepreneurship.

Marion has been studying psychology and consciousness since 1987 and has a PhD on postnatal depression and the mother-infant relationship from Cambridge University. 

Marion is the mother of a daughter and a son and has been practicing Aware Parenting since 2002. She has been an Aware Parenting instructor since 2005. 

Her approach is rooted in the belief that children thrive when their emotions are understood and supported, and that parenting with empathy and awareness can break cycles of trauma, tension, and disconnection. Marion has contributed significantly to promoting Aware Parenting, providing tools and strategies to parents around the world to foster emotional intelligence and healing.

Chapters

• 0:02 The Philosophy of Aware Parenting
• 13:48 Foundations of Aware Parenting
• 22:07 Cultural Approaches to Parenting and Emotions
• 30:10 Parenting Through Emotional Releases
• 39:46 The Transformative Power of Listening
• 49:48 Understanding Emotional Needs in Parenting
• 58:52 Healing and Transformation Through Aware Parenting
• 1:06:00 Healing Through Attachment Play and Laughter
• 1:13:24 Navigating Loving Limits in Parenting
• 1:16:22 Supporting Emotional Release Through Parenting
• 1:19:29 Supporting Emotional Release in Parenting
• 1:25:39 Understanding Baby's Sleeping Patterns
• 1:38:05 The Power of Aware Parenting
• 1:41:38 Sharing Our Private Parenting Journey

Transcript

Dylan: 0:02

Okay, Welcome my two lovely guests to the Vital Beta podcast. So excited. We have only done one or two podcasts with three people. So I'm excited because for the first time, my wife Soleil, is joining us on the podcast, and Soleil is a wonderful person in many ways, but some of the things she does is she is a birth doula, she's an Ayurvedic practitioner and she's a postpartum doula and probably I don't know how long it's going to take before she's an Aware Parenting instructor, certified Aware Parenting. She's basically becoming one in various ways, but we're going to explain in this podcast. You'll learn about what is Aware Parenting and something that she's extremely passionate about, and we're very, very honored to have Marion here, who's one of the authorities in this field of aware parenting.

Sole: 0:56

So Marion Rose, phd is an author, a podcast host, a psycho-spiritual mentor, a level 2 aware parenting instructor and the regional coordinator for Australia, new Zealand and Indonesia, and she's the creator of the Marion Method for psycho-spiritual and reparenting and entrepreneurship. Marion has been studying psychology and consciousness since 1987 and has a PhD on postnatal depression and the mother-infant relationship from Cambridge University. Marion is the mother of an adult daughter and son and has been practicing aware parenting since 2002. She has been an aware parenting instructor since 2005. Aware parenting is rooted in the philosophy that for children to heal from stress and trauma, their emotions need to be listened and Sorry. Aware parenting is rooted in the philosophy that children heal from stress and trauma when their emotions are listened to. Marion has contributed significantly promoting aware parenting, providing practices to parents around the world to foster presence and healing. Welcome, marion. It's such a pressure and delight to have you in the podcast.

Dylan: 2:28

I'm so delighted to be here with both of you, kind of like a couples therapy session.

Marion: 2:36

Yes, tell me about your children.

Marion: 2:42

So, why, marion, is it important for people to continue listening to this podcast episode? Wow? Well, I think aware parenting is one of the most powerful things that we can do, not only for our own family, not only for our child, our children, not only for ourselves in terms of the reparenting that it invites us into that is transformational but also in terms of the culture that we can co-create together. When I look around at the world I see today, I see it's a result of us not understanding these really core elements of the philosophy of aware parenting. That really is life-changing. When we respond to babies, children and teens in these ways, we support children to stay connected with their innate presence, which is compassion and care and interconnectedness and contribution.

Marion: 3:41

And so many of the things that we see in the world are caused by not having this quality of presence and not getting the opportunity to heal from stress and trauma. So aggression, violence, power over the desire and or the need to buy lots of things, to be really busy, that the idea of productivity, so many of these things are really rooted in not having these foundational pieces in place when we are babies and children. So I really think it's a philosophy that can change the world, which is basically why I've devoted my life to sharing about it and spreading it, so that people who resonate with it will go yes, oh my gosh, this makes sense. And actually I wouldn't say one more thing, which is there's so many parenting, there's so much parenting advice out there in the world, isn't there?

Marion: 4:35

Particularly around sleep, and what I find is aware parenting just makes sense, like when we look at it both from an understanding of stress and trauma, from attachment theory. Sense like when we look at it both from an understanding of stress and trauma from attachment theory, but also when we look at indigenous cultures and we look at our hunter gatherer, hunter gatherer heritage. It all just makes so much sense and I hear that so often for people that they're kind of always dabbling in all these different approaches and nothing quite fits and they come across aware parenting. They go oh, now I get it. This makes sense and we're going to talk more about it, but it really is something that you can experiment with and observe the results straight away which I'm sure you've experienced too.

Dylan: 5:17

And I think why it is so important this episode is because in this podcast we deal with all things of health and consciousness, but it's intervening or attending to babies and the the era of the time of life of baby, of child, and that is so influential just a reminder in case people forget like what we're doing to the health of our babies is influential to the consciousness of society and to the emotional state and the friendliness and the, the peace in in society.

Dylan: 5:54

And we've done podcasts on looking at preconception as well, on how that influences, and it definitely all does. And this is one important part and I've spoken to some recent of my Ayurveda colleagues about aware parenting, which we're going to get into in a bit, and they're kind of relieved and interested because it's not really a thing which we speak about a lot in Ayurveda is parenting Like we speak about preconception, we speak about postpartum care for the mother, we speak about health on many, many levels. But one thing which is a little bit neglected or not fully understood from a lot of things in the Vedic tradition is the emotions, the heart and definitely parenting, and so I'm excited to explore this. So do you want to start with what is aware parenting.

Marion: 6:46

So aware, parenting is a philosophy that was created by a woman called Aletha Salter, phd, who's a Swiss American psychologist, and it's based on three fundamental aspects. So the first aspect is attachment parenting, or attachment style parenting so pretty much everyone I'm sure listening to this will be familiar with what attachment?

Dylan: 7:10

So attachment I don't even know if Lolly speaks of it Okay.

Marion: 7:13

So attachment style parenting is based on the research from the 1950s, but also again based on many indigenous cultures, which is that babies come into the world with these expectations and needs, primarily for closeness and prompt responsiveness to their cues.

Marion: 7:34

So that's what we see again in many indigenous cultures is babies being carried the majority, if not all of the time. So it's really this understanding of attachment and that the way a baby is responded to has a fundamental effect on the core beliefs they then have about their needs. Basically, and in the culture we live in which we'll probably talk about I'm sure we're really the industrial western culture is based much more on the idea of separation, early separation, early independence, whereas aware parenting the foundation is connection and presence and responsiveness, and really most people focus on the third element of aware parenting. It's the most different, but attachment theory is the foundation. So that's number one. The second element is non-punitive discipline. So that means that we don't need to use punishments and rewards with children now. Punishments and rewards might accidentally come out of us because we were conditioned in those ways, but the whole philosophy is that when we understand the true cause of a child's behavior there are three causes for challenging behaviors we can respond to them at the true cause of a child's behavior. There are three causes for challenging behaviors. We can respond to them at the root cause, so we don't ever need to use punishments or rewards, because we understand exactly why they're doing what they're doing and exactly what we can do to support them. To return to, often again, the calm presence, the connection, the desire to cooperate, the desire to contribute, all, all of those things. And then there's the third element, which is often the most controversial, and that's really understanding. Well, first of all, preventing stress and trauma wherever possible for children. But then it's also understanding that babies come into the world with this innate capacity to heal from stress and trauma and we continue to have have that.

Marion: 9:25

But because this culture doesn't understand that and perceives it in a different way and it's really related to expressing feelings right from birth onwards because this culture doesn't understand that, then what happens is that innate wisdom for healing, that innate intelligence that our bodies are so wise, gets suppressed. So what usually happens is, right from day dot, baby's true feelings. They're healing feelings. I call them. So.

Marion: 9:51

Babies have needs feelings, so they they'll cry when they have a need, and that's the attachment theory part that we respond promptly. But all babies, however much we meet their attachment needs, however devoted we are to carrying them, even if we're carrying them 24-7, if we had a calm birth, if we've done all the preparation you know we're just devoted every baby will still have what I call healing feelings every day. They will feel overwhelmed, even if we're in this beautiful calm space, because coming out into the world I mean this is your area of area of expertise from being the womb is such a massive shift. So it's really understanding. All babies have feelings to express, all children have feelings to express, and and teens or adults as well, of course.

Marion: 10:37

But because we don't understand this innate wisdom for healing from stress and trauma, we would generally suppress it, and then we could spend five hours really talking about how we suppress feelings and healing in babies, children, teens and the effects of that, and basically most of the things that parents find challenging are caused because of not understanding this innate wisdom and suppressing those feelings. That leads to all the things the, the frequent night waking, the, the, the child who just never goes to sleep, the child who is agitated all the time, the child who never cooperates, all of the things, the hitting, the biting, the throwing, just everything. Anything you can think of that's challenging as a parent is probably caused because of not understanding this piece. So it's really life-changing when we really get that and instead of working against that innate wisdom, we cooperate with it beautiful.

Dylan: 11:32

Yeah, I want to say as well, we do a lot for our baby. I mean, we're very into area, so you know, we give him a lot of herbs. We give him oil massage every day, then we give him a herbal paste and then we give him herbal fumigation. That's his daily routine and there's a lot of health things, but by far the number one thing which takes our attention time is, aware, parenting, particularly the third pillar of navigating, and I love how you said, um, working with the process of his emotions, um. So, yeah, it's, it's very powerful and important. So a question which I had early on uh, particularly we started when our baby was three months and I was like, where are these feelings coming from?

Dylan: 12:25

like we had a good birth. It was natural. We live in a peaceful place and you just said it. But I think it's important because, yeah, so many people don't understand that it that it is an overwhelming world. And, um, I just look at my son, like if I take him for a walk, like he wants to look at that leaf and then that leaf and like the pace of a snail. But if I'm taking him even for a walk, like he wants to look at that leaf and then that leaf and like the pace of a snail, but if I'm taking him even for a walk in a peaceful street, it's a lot. So you just mentioned it a bit. But if we could elaborate like where are these feelings coming?

Marion: 12:55

from yes.

Dylan: 12:55

And I so resonate. Why are?

Sole: 12:56

they so emotional. We have a good life.

Marion: 12:58

I so resonate because I found out about aware parenting when I was pregnant, because my my whole background as you read out at the beginning so late is developmental psychology. So when I was pregnant and I was a bit like you, I think I was devoted to doing like everything I possibly could in every level and layer so you did your PhD in postnatal depression before you before.

Dylan: 13:17

Yes, like 14, so I spent 14.

Marion: 13:20

I spent 14 years like really immersed. I was trained as psychotherapist. I also was a researcher in developmental psychology at various universities, so those were my parallel journeys. So I already had this 14-year background. So I was basically saying, okay, what parenting approach is there that understands all of these things I've talked about, all the study I've done on pre and perinatal psychology, psychology on the effects of birth and birth trauma, all of that stuff.

Marion: 13:48

And then I came across aware parenting on back in in the day, on the internet, because it did exist then and I was in absolute awe like, oh my gosh, this is it, this is all of the things.

Marion: 13:58

And then it had that missing piece that I hadn't learned, even though I'd done every course under the sun I'd'd done, you know, rebirthing and holotropic breath work and all the things back in the 90s that were around, and yet nobody and trained as a psychotherapist, all the things, no one had ever in those paradigms had known that babies come into the world able to heal by expressing those feelings. Which is amazing, isn't it? It's so little known still. So when I started practicing it with my daughter, I did the attachment style parenting and I thought I'm meeting, you know, I'm carrying her 24 7. We're co-sleeping. We did actually. I started ec a bit later. I didn't find out about her until she was, until she was nine months old, but you know I was doing all that. It's, like you know, 100 devotion, so I thought she doesn't have any feelings to express because, I'm doing everything and feeding her, like all the time, and I loved it.

Marion: 14:52

It was brilliant, and if I had thought that was the most helpful thing for I would have carried on. But by the time she was three months old it became clear actually, these she did have feelings and I was suppressing them and they were accumulating and she was starting to show signs that perhaps she wasn't quite as present, maybe she wasn't always making eye contact, so, uh, so I really resonate with you of like no, really. And then we started listening to her feelings. So we started every night, so her dad and I. So he was involved in men's work for many years back in london. He'd been involved with the um, the mythopoetic men's movement, with um, maladomasoma and, I imagine, all the beautiful men that you know. So he'd done lots of grief rituals. He'd done like the in the k, in the buried in the ground, sobbing, so. So he was like really, okay, let's do this. And so we listened to her feelings that first day when she was three months old, which I imagine you've had a similar experience I might share about.

Marion: 15:55

So we listened then every night before sleep for several months. But over the time I started to realize, hang on a minute, I think I'm listening to 100%, but it's probably more like 50, and so over the years, when I became an aware parenting instructor and then I had my son and I was really aiming to listen to 100 and he cried so much. So it's really over years and years of working with parents to really understand. You know, whatever we in in in the beginning, even to think that babies have any healing feelings to express is huge, isn't it? And then, over time, I think it just becomes more and more and more obvious. They have so many feelings and I think, culturally you know I loved what you said about the going slow, so many of the things that we take for granted.

Marion: 16:40

So we would look around this room and you know I I feel relaxed in here. But if we had a newborn baby in here, there are literally thousands of pieces of information here that aren't trees and lakes and the sky. They, they have no concepts. A new baby has no concepts. They don't understand. Well, that's right, because that's a window and there's a computer and those are mics, so all they have is information that they don't understand, and so many of the feelings caused in the early months are overwhelmed. Even if we you know this is a beautiful you know live in Mullumbimby and it's quiet and you, you know, you have this beautiful quality of presence here, still it's very, very overwhelming compared to the womb compared to the womb.

Marion: 17:24

Yeah, exactly, birth. Again, even if you have a really calm birth, birth is a massive, massive process and again, this is your area of passion and I come been very influenced by the work of stanislav groff. I don't know if you've heard of his work, so I'd really dived in deep. But again, we think, even if it's a blissful, orgasmic birth for the mother, the process of moving through the birth canal for the baby is the you know, the titanic forces that they're going through. It's really normal and natural. Again, if you've got the blissful orgasmic birth, babies are still going to need to share feelings about that. It's big and they will often do that.

Marion: 18:00

Often in the early weeks when we start listening, they might be arching their back, they're revisiting the birth, they might be kicking and pushing, they're, they're showing us what they experience, so that really, that titanic struggle, let alone if it wasn't orgasmic and blissful or if there were interventions or you know, there are so many feelings, so many and of course, you know there's research that shows, basically, the more trauma a baby experiences during birth, the more well, basically, they sleep less and, from an aware parenting perspective, that's because they have more trauma to be healed from, which they can absolutely heal from. And then there's things like developmental frustration. So I'm sure you've probably seen this with your son. When children are going through and your babies are going through a new developmental stage, they can feel really frustrated, and we know that, don't we? You know, when you're trying to learn a new app or something it's like oh, it can be really frustrating.

Marion: 18:56

Why can't I do that? And they're like they can't do, they're so dependent on us and to actually try, you know, learning these really massive things that all babies, most babies, do is huge. So frustration, really normal, and again, we can't protect them from that. They, they need to feel frustrated as part of learning to do those things. So, again, even if we're the most, you know, switched on parents, they will still feel those feelings. And then there's just like our stresses. So if we're stressed, and that might even be a little bit stressed, just a bit like, oh you, know I'm busy, or you know that we're just kind of talking to someone else or we're just looking around.

Marion: 19:35

They, they are these. You know what it's like. They come into the world and they are beings of presence and they are taking it all in. They have no filters and everything affects them, absolutely everything, including all of the feelings that we're suppressing, just everything, basically. So when we start thinking about these things, it's like, well, it's not surprising. And then, of course, any shocking things.

Dylan: 20:02

Or just moving house, going out to the shops, going you know anything like that big, big, big and more stimulation.

Marion: 20:08

So that's a big feeling, so normal and natural, and the beautiful thing is supporting them to retain that connection with that clear presence, which I imagine is so much part of your passion, knowing that we can support them to stay connected with that, whereas most people start shutting down very early on if they don't have this support as babies and children this is really the first step.

Dylan: 20:32

Like when I explain the way parents do people, I'm like first thing is to recognize that this they have feelings about these things and then it's like, okay, how do we work with these so that they develop and evolve? Yes, and I'm just curious. So this aletha woman started it.

Marion: 20:46

Yes, sorry, aletha salter aletha salter phd. She's an amazing woman she's, she's a you know the matriarch. She's still here and she's like before her time, so she wrote.

Dylan: 20:57

So the aware baby was published in oh my gosh, I think it was 1981, 81 or 83, I never remember, yeah, so yeah, so she, as you said, the first pillar was based on tradition. So I imagine, like it's as you said, it's so common sense, like when I learned. It's like obviously so it's not just started in the 80s, like aletha probably cognized a systematic way to spread it. But surely and you're doing work now on your new book about sleep and you're correlating with different tradition, wisdoms, but yeah I'm curious the connection between.

Dylan: 21:32

We don't have to go into the details, but yes, I I assume that I haven't. I love researching traditions. I mean I practice traditional medicine, but I assume that a lot of traditions around the world indigenous traditions, wisdom traditions practice something similar with parenting, definitely the attachment style as you said that's very clear but what about?

Marion: 21:52

the third pillar, which is that compassionate approach to emotions well, as soon as I discovered aware parenting, because back in 1992 I discovered the continuum concept, which I'm sure you're familiar with and that was so life changing for me. The Continuum Concept it's by a woman called Jean Liedloff. She was living with the Yaquana people in South America and so she wrote this book, which is basically about carrying, you know, keeping babies close and actually also them, um, to learn from us about how to, to live in community, and it was really life-changing. It was life-changing for me. It was life-changing was came, I think she wrote, in oh my gosh, 60s, I think so.

Marion: 22:36

It was part of that movement, you know the 60s, where travel happened and people started to be more influenced by indigenous cultures, particularly hot ones. So, um, that was life-changing for me, and as soon as I found out about aware parenting, that was the question I had okay, so did we forget about this? Was this known? Are there any cultures that still practice the third, the third aspect, um, and so I've been researching it ever since and, as far as I have discovered, so far I haven't found any culture that does that with babies, because in so many so I talk about this a lot in the sleep book is that in many very, very hot climates, which is where I call it classical attachment parenting.

Marion: 23:24

So you may have seen, a classical attachment parenting is the idea not only carrying babies but um feeding them often and the idea that they need to wake frequently through the night that's the, the idea that that is um and a biological imperative for the first several years and that we just need to um, you know, see that that's just how it is indian teacher taught us yes, so that is very um common in in hot cultures and I really want to acknowledge aletha and her research here.

Marion: 23:55

So she really looked at the idea that in very hot cultures it's very important for babies to be breastfeeding frequently throughout the day, particularly because to prevent dehydration, but also to make sure, just to support them with all the gorgeous things that are in breast milk and also to make sure that they weren't sick. You know, if you can, if you can placate a baby and stop them from crying, it's generally a reassurance that there's nothing awry. You know they're not ill or sick. So that is generally what happens in, as far as I can see in in very hot climates around the world. Is that um, the frequent breastfeeding, the, the carrying all the time while they're in arms, the co-sleeping, all of that stuff, all of that stuff.

Marion: 24:39

But in very cold indigenous climates it looks really different because of course um and again it's it's every indigenous culture is different and of course I I don't know all of them, but from what I've discovered is that some of them um do, will keep a baby close. So they might baby might originally be um naked underneath the fur, so you know the big fur coat and they might be breastfeeding regularly under there, but in many other cultures they will actually be swaddled and either placed on the back or placed on a sled. So there's often more separation in colder climates because they're fed less frequently, because there isn't the concern about dehydration. So what happens is often this pattern of the much more hind milk, the much longer feeds and much bigger gaps in between the feeds. And so it's really seeing that every culture, every climate, every geographical area has a way that is most adaptive to parent. And so in hot climates it's the frequent feeding, the co-sitting In the colder climates that's different.

Marion: 25:56

And to really see it like that, rather than seeing there's a one way that's most helpful, is what's most adaptive. And of course, in most Western countries there isn't concern about you know, is a baby going to survive? We've got, you know, houses and all the kinds of things. So it's not about are they too cold, all those things. So we can, as aletha says, we're free to focus on optimal emotional well-being right from the beginning. But to answer your question, and the research seems to say that, even in cultures who listen to feelings when babies became a bit older and became children, I haven't seen any culture so far. I'm really I'm so interested if anyone, any of your listeners, might have some research. But so often it's really common, for example in hot, in some hot climates, when babies get old enough, they become more toddlers, maybe more like two, for example.

Marion: 26:48

Or whenever the breastfeeding is stopped, they might suddenly cry for weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks, or suddenly the parents might be unwilling to carry them and they might cry for weeks and weeks and weeks. Some other cultures seem to welcome crying in children and see that, as you know, they're expressing their feelings, but as far as I've discovered so far, not, not with babies yeah, yeah, I won't go into it so much, but I I haven't thought much about it, but the most culture that I'm connected with is india yes, I spent quite a bit of time there and yeah my teachers are a traditional family and I feel they're they're brought up in such a different way and they live such different way in so many areas relationships and everything.

Dylan: 27:31

Sexuality and yeah, it's, it's connected to how they were brought up in babies and yes, they're emotional is it's very different and a role I think that plays in that culture for example, the vedic is that adding level of spirituality of the vibrational effects of certain ways, like whether it's ceremonies, for example so that can maybe be.

Dylan: 27:55

I've had a thought recently. That's how they metabolized emotions is through the subtle, not maybe not through crying and through, and, as you said, and this is a key principle of Ayurveda is called Desha Kalapatra. Where are you, what's your habitat and what time are you in? And who's a unique individual.

Marion: 28:13

Beautiful. Yes, Definitely.

Dylan: 28:14

And it says Ayurveda's not Indian, it's universal.

Marion: 28:17

It depends on where you live and who you are, and the circumstances, and isn't that so beautiful? And that's what I love about this approach is really saying, actually, there isn't any right and I don't believe in right and wrong.

Marion: 28:32

It's like what is actually most adaptive. And that means actually also for each family, because aware parenting is like I see the way we practice it, it's almost on a spectrum. You know some people will be like oh my gosh, I love this, I'm going to devote my whole life to it, I'm going to carry my baby as much as I can. I'm going to listen to as many feelings as I can and all the way down to the other side, to people who might go. Yeah, this resonates with me and you know, if my toddler has a tantrum, I won't prevent it from happening and I'll listen. And seeing all of them is beautiful. It's like everyone has their own way in their own path and they're all apt for the, for the particular environment we live in.

Dylan: 29:09

Just to expand on the what is where parenting for people who are new to it, I'd love to you to explain, actually, what is listening to a baby's feelings. For us, it is, um, one of the most effective things we can do for our baby and now that and one of the things we look forward to the most, when, when it's when we get an opportunity to do it yes, well, it's very um much about our own quality of presence and that's why it's so hard for most of us, because most of us have never had our feelings heard, even as teenagers or children, let alone as babies.

Marion: 29:44

But really the aim is to be as present as we possibly can in our bodies, to be comfortable ourselves, to to be really confident that our baby has all their needs met. So we're holding them, we've recently fed them. If we're doing elimination communication, we'd offer them a wee or a poo. If they wear nappies, we've changed their nappy, we're making sure they're not too hot, they're not too cold, like all of the things. And if there are ever any concerns, there might be something else going on, of course, tending to those, but then simply being present and not jiggling, not rocking, not moving, just being really still in our bodies. And I used to have my favorite crying position, which you've just seen from the back of the book the Emotional Life of Babies, which I'd have a sofa like this and I'd have a stool which I'd put my feet up on, and I'd have a pillow, and so I'd have them.

Marion: 30:39

basically, it's very hard to explain lying along my legs, their back, lying along my legs so that their face was and my face we were basically looking each other and so when they were little, their feet would be against my tummy, but when, as they got bigger, their feet would like straddle around like a froggy position in a carrier. And then, as babies get bigger and they don't need to be held anymore. So once, once they can move, the whole thing changes. So to really offer that, that it really changes often about eight, nine, ten months, but really to hold them and just to basically say you know, I'm here and I'm listening and I'm here for you to share whatever you have to share with me. And so often babies will. They might already be crying or they might be what's often called fussing. I don't really like that word. They might be kind of and if we are there and we keep listening and we don't stop them, that will move into bigger and bigger crying and bigger and bigger crying. And that's often particularly if we've never experienced it before. We've never seen anyone else do it, we haven't seen them come out the other side feeling relaxed and present like the Buddha or whoever you hold. It's massive.

Marion: 31:54

But once we're experienced, we can just be there and the feelings will get bigger and bigger. So they'll cry. They will cry really loudly, very, very loudly. They will move vigorously. So that's really important of the part of the release, because they're releasing stress and tension. So another way we can look at that is in terms of the fight or flight response. When they are crying, they are literally moving out of the fight or flight response. So they're, you know, fighting. The energy mobilized to fight there will be hands will be going everywhere. The energy mobilized to flee in their legs. They will often kick, push or we might put their hand against a hand against their legs and that might intensify the crying.

Marion: 32:37

Or again, you know, if they have particular birth experiences, we might find that they get in that same position that they were in during the birth. And again, you're a area of expertise, so they're so powerful to see them actually revisit their time in utero and their birthing experience and actually tell us how that was for them. So it's loud, it's really loud, it's vigorous. We like loud. Yeah, I know, I love loud too. It's like, yeah, um, and it gets louder and louder. They will often sweat as well. That's part of the release.

Marion: 33:08

And you know what I came to and I I wonder I imagine you're probably at that place already is it became incredibly satisfying for me. So at the beginning it was a bit like all my younger parts came up my incubator, baby self, all kinds of things. That's normal and natural. That's why it's so essential that we have ongoing support, because in my experience, having done a lot of modalities, there's nothing like practicing this to invite every single one of our own feelings that hasn't been felt and expressed, so our baby self, whatever happened to us, if we were left alone to cry, we might feel all kinds of big feelings, so essential to tend to those.

Marion: 33:46

So often there'll be a big crescendo and again that's often where, if you're new to this, you might be like oh my god, what the hell is going on. And of course, so important, if you're concerned, if you're concerned hungry, please, you know, stop feed them. See and see from their behavior. They will let you know if they were hungry, if they're pushing the, the breast away or they just clearly that's a no, you can be confident that they're that. But of course we need to make sure, and the more we experience this, the more we experience them coming out the other side, so calm, the more confident we get. But so there's the crescendo and then often they'll, the feelings will die down a little bit and again, if we're newer, we might go great. Okay, you know they're going to go to sleep. I'll just be quiet.

Marion: 34:29

But, when we get more confident we're wanting to support as many feelings to come out. It's like the satisfyingness of oh yeah, I'm letting it all out here, I'm raging, crying. If you've done any kind of big releasing the feeling work yourself with with support, it's so satisfying. So then we might just say you know, I'm still here, I'm listening, and then they might go again or they might go, you know, depending on how you know, how many feelings that's sitting at the surface, that that process might happen. Um, so I'm doing with my hand like a little mountain. Mountains get lesser and lesser until basically they complete a whole crying cycle, which means those feelings that were related to each other have all been released. So that might be a particular element of their birth. It might be. We went out to the shops and they felt overwhelmed and confused and stressed they. So when they get to the end, they will come out the other side and this is the most wondrous thing, I remember the first time we did it with my daughter.

Marion: 35:30

We listened to my daughter's feelings, our daughter's feelings, and she came out the other side and this quality of presence just suffused the room and all the meditation. It's just like that, it's like the most, and she gazed into my eyes as if she were. We were there in eternity and we did. I've got full body tingles showing it just here.

Marion: 35:55

I'm here with you, and that's when you have evidence like that. I mean really it's a scientific research evidence. There's no question that this is what we all you know. If we all had this opportunity, imagine how clear we'd all be. That's what happens in this clarity and spaciousness, and I saw it, my daughter I saw even more with my son, because we I could listen to more feelings.

Marion: 36:23

I was like, yeah, I can listen to hours a day, I'm really confident, as many hours as you want, I'm here and that you've seen on the cover of the emotional eye for babies. It was like this um, the luminescence shone out of his face. That's why I see that is our true nature. We all, we all have this luminescence that we're connected with and where parenting supports babies and children, teens and adults to release, express these feelings that actually shut down and and lead us to, to disconnecting from that the love that we are, the luminescence, the presence, the awareness. That is our true nature luminescence.

Sole: 37:05

For sure, I want to say our baby. When I was reading the emotional life of babies, when he was born, he the first thing and he couldn't stop looking at your son's photo. He was like and my mom would say I think he's in love with that baby because he would not stop looking at him. And, yeah, it's that vitality and luminescence like having a long deep meditation yes, so many people say that to me, actually so many people.

Dylan: 37:35

To explain it I'm like we meditate twice a day to release stress. That's I. I didn't grow up even right. You know I started meditating properly when I was 20 or 18 or something and I didn't grow up even right. You know, I started meditating properly when I was 20 or 18 or something and I didn't cry to release stress. I would meditate twice a day and it was. It's effective. It's got a different way, but for babies, that's their daily stress release and, as you said, after they'll come out like just blissful calm, like a baby buddha, and and then also, by the way, they will sleep better, most probably.

Dylan: 38:05

Yeah, definitely Also another thing which has been really valuable, particularly now that we are going out more and kind of increasing stimuli is that it's more adaptable.

Dylan: 38:16

So, for example, we went to a kirtan last weekend. This weekend with how many people were there? Like 100. And she's always like I'm not going unless he has a good release. And we went and he did and he was great. I was surprised because we've been to birthday parties when there was 10 people and he it was too much, too much. Literally that was saturday night, kirtan. Friday night we had a at a dinner with 10 people or less. It's too much. He didn't like it. New house hotel he was tense. He was just like, probably that much. He didn't like it. New house would tell he was tense.

Sole: 38:45

He was just like probably that day he didn't release as many feelings and we took him to that dinner and then as soon as he arrived to the house he started crying. So we were like okay, yeah, he has a lot to tell us and share. But then the saturday, because I knew this big event was coming, so I was like I want to make sure you know, if I'm going to take him, to make sure that all his healing feelings are being met. And and then we took him and I was like so surprised. Sometimes he's like for me such a relief, like.

Sole: 39:14

And then I'm like I never know what's going to happen when we go home and at night but, it seems like it's been two or three days that there's been feelings, as every day there are feelings but nothing major and you could see it Like I was surprised.

Dylan: 39:29

He was relaxed, he was smiling, he was walking around to the different people.

Sole: 39:34

Walking, not crawling.

Dylan: 39:35

Crawling around.

Marion: 39:38

It's amazing isn't it and again it's similar because the more feelings that a baby has accumulated in their bodies, the less they can be open to new experience. So again this is what I really saw with my son in particular. He, he was like this open channel, like great, you know, tell me I'm interested what's there, but but not in a room, just like I'm here. I'm, you know, I'm available, I'm present, what I mean, what, what I'm open to life and and isn't that something we want for our children to be able to be open.

Marion: 40:05

You know. I'd also love to hear what do you want to share, your first experience of listening to his feelings and seeing him come out the other side with that presence?

Sole: 40:13

because I would imagine so I think the first experience I had was still was not there. I was with my mother and very triggering for my mother, she was coming every five minutes to check in and this was like the first time, I think, when he was three months old, like I've been reading the aware baby and then your book and it's like gaining that confidence for me to do it and then finally I felt like, oh, I'm ready to do this and it was, uh, I think one and a half or one and an hour and 45 minutes crying very loud. That I think, yeah, the neighbors probably heard a lot of it.

Dylan: 40:51

We actually had a neighbor tell us that we're causing trauma to our baby.

Sole: 40:54

Oh yeah, we did have that, but that's for another time, you're so not alone with that.

Marion: 41:00

I actually sent like I like sent messages, messages, whatever it was back in the day. I can't remember, but I let everyone know we're going to be listening to lots of things. We're with them. They're not on their own, all of those things.

Sole: 41:13

Yeah, but yeah it's big yeah, we probably should have done that because a lot of our neighbors were triggered yeah, a lot yeah, um, well, maybe two or three yeah um, but, yeah, that first time it was big, it was really big.

Sole: 41:28

Uh, for me, yes, it was like a big heart opening experience of realizing first like, oh, I haven't been, I had my feelings haven't been, uh, hurt in this way, I haven't been listened, I haven't been held in this way, and I'm feeling all those parts of myself when I was a baby and a child that they were suppressing my feelings. And, um, no judgment to my parents. I know that they did the best they can and I love them so much, but um yeah, they were suppressed.

Sole: 42:06

I was left alone and control crying, uh. So yeah, big, big feelings came up in in in that and then. But then, yeah, very empowering and and feeling really confident in, as you said, the mountain flag trading. And then seeing how he his energy and his physical body after releasing, how he was so relaxed and he looked at me exactly what you said.

Sole: 42:36

He looked at me a few times and I I was looking at his eyes like strong eye gazing, and then he went to sleep on me, like so relaxed, like really relaxed body, and I was like, oh, he was he's been carrying a lot like three months of. We haven't heard his feelings and yes, yeah, like wow, yes, because for three months technically.

Dylan: 43:05

For the first three months, our usual protocol was he's crying, I'd put him in a carrier and I'd pat his bum and I'd go shh, shh, shh, because we were told by our midwife shh is the same sound as the placenta, was it the? Placenta yes, so I was like yeah, that sounds good.

Marion: 43:19

And we did that for three months and some people do it for two years, some people never do it, some people do it for nine months and a lot of people find aware parenting because of sleep. I think that's the main way people come to it. Hence the, hence the new book yes, all about sleep, which is gonna be great yeah, I really hope.

Dylan: 43:36

Thank you, um. It spreads far. But yeah, my my first um I can't really remember my exact first, but I remember the early days and for me I was never um, I didn't find it emotionally confronting. Later I've I've really um connected my emotions with it, but in the beginning for me I was very confident. It was like I know that this is good.

Sole: 44:00

It's like yeah, get it out like that's what my thing was.

Dylan: 44:03

My only uh, the, the thing which I found tricky was my impatience. So I'm very much like doing a lot, I work and and you know I could be releasing for an hour or more, like so what commonly happens, which is good for listeners, and I was because we've been suppressing for three months. When we start, I remember I remember very clearly like that first five days there were big releases and a lot of releases yeah, like close to two hours as many many times a day.

Dylan: 44:33

So yeah, three, four times a day of like one, one and a half almost two hours of crying and it was many hours of listening and we were tag team soleil and I, because for me it was impatience I needed to work, I. And we were tag team Soleil and I, because for me it was impatience I needed to work, I needed to do things.

Sole: 44:47

And that was the only. Thing.

Dylan: 44:49

But I was fine with it. I knew it was good.

Marion: 44:51

I'm like yeah, keep going.

Dylan: 44:53

And when you fall asleep out of time, I kind of just try waking up. So you do that.

Marion: 44:58

Yeah, like, keep going Like I want. I call it squeezing out the emotional toothpaste. It was like a little bit more there.

Sole: 45:04

Yes, because they can't fall asleep with still feelings there. They can manage to release as much to go to sleep but then there can still be a lot to go. So that's what Marianne is saying like squeezing them like doing a bit of squeezing their hand to see if there's any more.

Marion: 45:22

And I really want to acknowledge mean that's huge, isn't it? Those like those many hours, and I do also want to offer to listeners that it's so important to go at your own pace.

Marion: 45:30

Too many people will not be doing that much, and so it might take a long while for them to catch up with those feelings, but they will always be able to catch up you know, I um, once I realized that I was only listening to 50, 60 percent of my daughter's feelings, I then up leveled my own practice and I would say it probably took until she was about two, two and a half, until she caught up from all the feelings I'd suppressed in the first 18 months. So it's just like also, um, one of the core principles which I haven't shared of aware parenting is trust. Trusting in the innate wisdom of babies, children, teens, adults, but also trusting the timing. And so some people might be like, yes, great and all in, but if you're not, you know, whatever your timing is, they can still catch up.

Sole: 46:19

Yeah, I think for us in our journey because I did find out our parenting when I was pregnant. For us in our journey because I did find out our parenting when I was pregnant and but then it took me three months of him being born to build that confidence and read and the books and the facebook group and listening to your podcast. So when we actually got to do it, it was like I was all in. I was like I'm listening to as many feelings I wanted.

Dylan: 46:41

I was the one not fully on board because I didn't know about it. And then when I started seeing the results, I was like I'm listening to as many feelings. I wanted this. I was the one not fully on board because I didn't know about it, and when I started seeing the results I was like, yeah, and what?

Marion: 46:49

did you see, because I think that's also really helpful is not only the presence, but I love you named that as well that relaxation. I get photos often from parents with the babies with their arms like above their head and just, I remember with my children we kind of almost like you could just feel the as they're crying, the re they're getting more relaxed in their muscles and the the quality of sleep, like they're so relaxed when they're sleeping, they sleep for longer, they're, they're more able to concentrate, they're just more present, they're happier, they smile more and just everything about it indicates this this incredible difference of what it actually what it's like when we feel relaxed, when they feel relaxed in their bodies rather than holding a whole lot of accumulated.

Sole: 47:31

They start with the feet very tight and then you can see the hand slowly opening more and more and more, while they finally are like yeah, and even their feet.

Marion: 47:44

You can see some parents say, oh my gosh, you know, my baby always used to have like tense feet and now even their feet are relaxed. Their face is often getting really clear when they're sleeping. You can see if a baby's needing to go to sleep via dissociation, which is pretty much how every other parenting method says help your baby mildly dissociate to go to sleep. But if you've listened to their feelings and we didn't even say that. But naturally babies and children um, are less able to suppress feelings when they're tired because from an aware parenting perspective, we would say that is their innate wisdom to release stress and tension from their bodies so they can sleep restfully and restoratively and it is transformative for sleep. We kind of named that, but, um, yeah, so for babies, uh, needing to suck their thumb or suck a dummy or just suppressing in other ways, you often see it when they're sleeping they've got this tension in their face whereas there's this quality of relaxation that's so it's lovely to be around as well, isn't it, don't?

Sole: 48:44

you find just beautiful and some a question that we had and I think a lot of parents have when they start listening to feelings uh, is what is a normal time of of a baby like, or a normal and natural time for a baby to cry? Because for us, as I said at beginning, it was one hour, one hour and a half, almost two hours, and we're like is this normal? Is it okay?

Marion: 49:13

yes, yeah, it's really normal, but really, again, it's talking about the individual differences. It really depends on what stress they've experienced in utero, during birth and all the other things we mentioned. If they're highly sensitive. Highly sensitive babies are taking more information, so they're more effective, and how much they're they're catching up with. So it really can vary from you know, a short, relatively short amount of time to many hours a day, particularly in the early months. So it's really normal and natural, particularly for a baby who's perhaps experienced birth trauma. It's so normal to have a lot. My son cried for hours every day?

Dylan: 49:51

How long would you go with your son in one session?

Marion: 49:54

Yeah, I don't even really remember exactly. I think maybe I probably went to a three-hour tied for two and a half three-hour one, but not all the time, just a bit of the squeezing. But because I started right from day dot and because I was determined to never feed him when he was upset. So he just he did actually lots of little and often, in the first couple of months, little and often crying.

Dylan: 50:17

So it's just that was how we did it. Yeah, because with the first like we're like oh, is he hungry? Not sure, so maybe we'll test.

Sole: 50:25

So and that's the big question, right? Yes, big questions.

Marion: 50:29

The biggest question to be able to differentiate between. So I'd say that two of the biggest things in aware parenting one is differentiating between hunger and healing feelings, or, in general, needs and healing feelings, but of course, with babies it's the hunger thing and there are really clear ways we can do that.

Dylan: 50:45

Yeah, I just like the only needs. I see the main needs I guess every day is either hunger or pain. Oh, you said cold or hot. Yeah, I, I say all those things, but really to me it's closeness, closeness yeah, it's also a need closest is the key need, the first need, yeah, so yeah, but but wouldn't that, if they're not close, create the emotions?

Marion: 51:06

yeah, but if they're crying, then it's not healing, it can be traumatizing. So that's why, right, I'm sending love to anybody and compassion and I invite you in the marion method, I I'm here to support people, to get free from what I call disconnected domination, culture, thinking, which is judgment, shame, guilt. But that's why, if a baby's left alone to cry, they will soon learn to dissociate, they will stop crying, they'll put their thumb in the mouth, they will get in a particular position, they will do things to dissociate from their feelings. So, yeah, in a way, parenting is something called the balance of attention, which is essential for all crying but also laughing. So we haven't even talked about laughing, that's another way to heal from trauma.

Marion: 51:46

We always need to make sure that they feel safe in the present moment so they can revisit the past and express the feelings from the past. So it's always, yeah, checking out, all the needs are met, and there was something else in there that we didn't quite finish, but I'm so willing to remember whatever that was oh, thank you.

Marion: 52:03

Differentiating between dissociation and relaxation, I would say that's the key thing. And the key thing that isn't understood in this culture and again I think it's probably so relevant to both of your work is because most adults are dissociated quite a lot of the time and we have all these cultural norms, whether it's getting the coffee every morning or scrolling the phone or uh, you know, there are a million ways we can dissociate and we do so. That's what most other parenting paradigms will say. You know, rock the baby, jiggle the baby, or do you know what you were told? Or give them a dummy or um. You know, placate, stop the feelings, either through sucking or movement or distraction, and the baby will stop crying.

Marion: 52:45

But they will be in mild dissociation and so we can tell. That's the opposite of the presence we were talking about. So they will. It's usually muscle tension and eye contact that you can tell. So if they're dissociated, they will. Either they'll probably avoid eye contact you'll be trying to make eye contact, they're looking everywhere or they will kind of be, you know, just gazing, staring into space, and you can do things, and then you know. And also muscle tension. So if their muscles are tense or if they kind of seem relaxed, but actually that there's not quality of presence, it's like floppy, almost like floppy, or just you know, there's not presence there. So that's why most of the confusions happen, particularly around sleep, because it's like oh, the baby's, the baby's calm, the baby's happy, or my child is happy. I stopped them from having the tantrum or the crying by giving them this lolly or whatever they're calm, whatever yeah, the ipad, whatever they're not calm, they're not relaxed, they're dissociated.

Marion: 53:44

And when, when we really observe babies and children and teens and adults, we can tell the difference. And I would say again that one piece of information I think is life-changing to really get that oh, my baby isn't happy, calm and relaxed.

Dylan: 53:59

They're dissociated and then differentiating between is he hungry, are they hungry or are they emotional? Yes, and that's, I think, just we just like when did we last feed him?

Sole: 54:11

and observing, observing how the if you are doubting. For me it's like okay, I'm gonna feed him and see, as you said, how. How is he feeding? Is he relaxed? Is he like coming in and out of the book? Like observing and observing. Yes, absolutely being the researcher, the researcher.

Marion: 54:28

You know from my book I'm passionate about supporting every parent to be their own researcher, to really you know this inside out, back to front, to observe.

Dylan: 54:37

And really Letha has in the Aware Baby this beautiful list of things that you can look for so that you can really clearly tell whether they're hungry or whether they've got feelings um, before we move on, I just want to also talk to people who, like we've got a lot of friends and solace mother's groups and things, who really struggle to listen to the emotions and they kind of get it, they resonate. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean you should speak about this, like because you're the one who's interacting with them and and we kind of can see it clearly in a lot of, a lot of our friends, um, but yeah, they.

Dylan: 55:14

Just what are these mothers doing that they have this resistance?

Sole: 55:19

maybe it's because the way that they're brought up, I don't know yeah, so I feel marion can share maybe um unmet needs on one hand side when parents have like unmet needs so it's like they can't give that level of presence to listening to feelings, but because their own needs are not being met yes and then when they have unresolved childhood trauma, that comes up and it's triggering when their, their kids, are crying.

Marion: 55:46

Yes, yeah, absolutely so in the Marion method. Well, in I talk about three types of feelings. So it's thoughts, feelings, so what we're telling ourselves. So obviously, if we're telling ourselves my baby's traumatized right now, or my child is having a tantrum is you know there's, they're misbehaving or whatever it might be, we're not going to be able to feel calm and relaxed. Then there's needs, feelings, exactly as you shared.

Marion: 56:08

If we've got unmet needs, unmet needs signal, bodily, you know, if we're lonely, we feel sad, if we feel you know all of the ways, so that prevents us from being present because we're not tending to those signals. And then there are the healing feelings that we have too, which is it will help us feel every single unfelt feeling. And that's why, with the way parenting, it's essential to be having our own practices. If we're not, if we're not tending to our own feelings, we're not. If we're not crying and raging and laughing, we might be able to do it, but but our babies can really tell the quality of presence we offer them. So we might be going yeah, I'm here and I'm listening, but actually if papa's going like, oh no, I please don't rage because I've got so much rage sitting inside me.

Marion: 56:53

If you rage, I'm going to explode or I'm so full of grief or loneliness or whatever it is. Babies will know that they'll go okay. So you know mom or dad have got some. They're not thinking that clearly, but you know mom or dad have got some healing to do before I'm safe enough to express my feelings with them yeah I do have a direct experience, uh, in regards to that.

Sole: 57:18

So when, a few months after we started practicing our parenting, dylan went away for one month for traveling and touring with our teachers and I was, my mom was also traveling overseas, so I was by myself and I did have help from his parents and some friends, but very different to having the full-time support of my husband and my mother, and he suddenly stopped crying wow and I was like calling dylan.

Sole: 57:47

He's not crying with me anymore and he's like be creative, find new ways. But we didn't know this and it was like he's not crying because he knows that I'm feeling a lot and I have a lot of unmet needs yeah and when I found out this, I was like bling, yes, and he wouldn't cry at all yeah, amazing isn't it?

Marion: 58:13

and that's their innate wisdom, like they know the quality of emotional safety and that's why, to me, like out of any practice, there's no escape from our own. What, what we're being invited to tend to, because most of it, and you know, unless we leave, our child or we and whatever, every single thing in us is going to be invited to come up, and at every age we're going to be invited to revisit whatever happened to us at that age. So the potential for transformation is amazing. You've probably heard michelle like if you'd asked me to come and sit here, even 10 years ago, let alone 20, I would have been terrified. I couldn't speak. You know, it's just the.

Dylan: 58:52

The process of healing, transformation is incredible through this parenting so, yeah, that's one case, and then the other one is which you talked on. But I just want to say, because we see those parents who can't, they want to do it and the two minutes of crying, I can't do it. I can't do it, boob Breast, give the breast because it's too. As you said, they're not stable in themselves.

Marion: 59:18

Or it's too triggering, yeah triggering because it helps them connect with their own feelings. Yeah, yeah, yeah, which?

Sole: 59:27

again is the invitation.

Marion: 59:29

Is the invitation? Are we willing to tend to? Are we willing to tend to what shows up in us?

Dylan: 59:34

it's like putting the oxygen mask on before you put the babies on.

Marion: 59:37

Like you heal yourself and that is most of the work. I mean the work with the web. Parenting is freeing ourselves from cultural conditioning and beliefs that we have about babies and children, and the second one is our own inner work. They're fine, they know what to do, they know how to heal. There's nothing.

Dylan: 59:56

It's our work that supports them, just to do what they know how to do in terms of how for us it was three months and we had, we suppressed until three months and we had, we was, we didn't, we suppressed until three months and then a big release, and so can you explain?

Dylan: 1:00:10

releases lots of releases for many, many hours every day, really acknowledge all the listening to feelings you did and do still talk about toddler tantrums, because I don't know much about them, but I kind of would guess it's like they get to what is a toddler Two or three years, when toddlers start having tantrums like I've had enough of this suppression with a bit of independence.

Marion: 1:00:36

Exactly, yeah, I mean, it's a combination of what I call the development of their will. So they separate it out, they have more of a sense of this is who.

Marion: 1:00:45

I am, this is who I'm not. This is what I want, this is what I don't want, and all the ways that cups up against, particularly again, michael, in the disconnected domination culture, how most toddlers, there's so much power over them and they're so little compared to us. They, they do have much less power than we do, but also for most toddlers, as you say, they've got that two years of accumulated feelings and it comes, it's coming to that point where it becomes harder and harder to suppress those feelings, whereas if we're aiming to listen as much as we can from infancy, they will still need to rage.

Marion: 1:01:20

They will still need to express the frustration, the outrage, but it often it doesn't show up so much as tantrums. And you know, the thing is if, if it, if feelings bubble up and they like right to the top, and maybe they're in the supermarket, in a busy place, it's like they're right at the top, they can't hold it in anymore, whereas if we're regularly listening to feelings they know my parents welcome my feelings they will generally save the feelings for when they're at home, when they're in safe spaces, and so it also makes life a lot easier when you're out and about in general.

Dylan: 1:01:54

So, um, yeah, that's the difference between the two have you seen, uh, people who have practiced aware parenting from early on. They don't have toddlers who buy it. Oh yeah, yeah, they don't do any of those things.

Marion: 1:02:06

Yes, sunny, sunny, solana too sunny, uh. So he experienced trauma when, uh, his dad and I separated when he was like four and a half. So before that point, he was the most present being I've ever met, basically calm, relaxed, so hitting, biting. If you're listening to a high enough proportion of feelings, you never needs to be even taking things from another child, even touching pets, like even at one, even at, you know, even as a baby. This idea, that and again this is a cultural belief.

Marion: 1:02:37

Isn't it so harsh about children that they're? They're unruly and they can't control themselves? They need to be taught to be gentle and they need to be taught to be cooperative. No, that's their innate state. So if we listen to it, we meet enough of their needs. We listen to enough of their feelings. They are gentle with animals because they're so present, and I see that with my lovelies are 22 and 18 now and you know the quality of presence my daughter did ballet for many years this presence that exudes her art. My son, you know they just yeah, so yeah, they don't hitting, biting, pushing, taking. All of that is accumulated feeling.

Sole: 1:03:17

So completely different experience the other day, our 11 month old was with a five-year-old at our house, maya and so they goes five months old, five month old, and so he goes, look how gentle he is with her he was like going to her but then not touching her, and then he was like really finding which was the way for him to touch her and and get to her, and we were all like admiring, like we didn't have to tell him absolutely anything, and he was yeah, that's so beautiful.

Marion: 1:03:47

That's her innate state. So all this, you know, be gentle, and all this teaching, I mean I I don't know about you, but I just I feel really sad that we have this belief as a culture, that which is basically the belief that our innate nature is, is lacking, sinful, bad, however you might call it, and we need to talk, to be taught to be loving, whereas actually our true nature and this is, to me, the beauty of aware parenting we see through evidence, this is our true nature gentleness, presence, consideration, that beautiful sensitivity that you're already seeing this and that's that's who we are.

Sole: 1:04:21

Isn't that life-changing? It's so beautiful to watch and witness. Yeah, we were a few adults and we were all like whoa, like it was.

Marion: 1:04:31

yeah peace, yeah, peace, and really it makes all of parenting so much easier because most of the time and of course there'll be times where we are stressed or we're traveling and they'll have more feelings, but in general they're a delight to be around, we want to hang out with them. It's just, you know, it's easy for us to stay connected with that unconditional love for them, because it's just beautiful to be with them.

Sole: 1:04:59

Going back, marion, to what we were sharing about, when poor parents or caregivers um are triggered, um by listening to feelings, and feelings might come up for them or to them um, what are your views? And if you're willing to share what happens when caregivers cry in front of their kids, and yeah, what? What would be the approach for this?

Dylan: 1:05:30

I just add to that so I've thought about it, like, oh, I want to cry, like, but I'm like, hold on, but maybe do I have to be the anchor in this situation, like I can't cry because I need to be a stable anchor who's apparently and generally, emotionally stable yeah, well again, I mean, we can always.

Marion: 1:05:49

It's always an experiment. So that's one question we could always try out, and now they will tell us pretty quickly like if they stop yeah but also I am so in a general statement. I tend to think if we're crying and it's you know we're crying, but we're still aware I'm the parent, I'm here, like you say. I'm here holding this presence. This is my role.

Marion: 1:06:09

I'm here for you. I'm still, and we might even say that you know mommy or daddy's having a cry, but I'm still here and I'm still listening. But if we're going into one of those ones where it's like the snot is falling on the floor and we're like so in two-year-old us, so we're really identified with those younger parts, I don't think that's so helpful, although, again, I think this is a developmental thing, not not for a baby, but when, as we get older, I think it's really important that we we model this. Otherwise we're going you know you cry, I'm gonna get help, you cry, but now I'm not gonna do that. Well, you know they're gonna learn that from us as well. So I think. But the the biggest question I think always is, if you have a question with aware parenting is experiment and see what happens.

Dylan: 1:06:52

They will tell you so you want to talk about control patterns oh yeah.

Sole: 1:07:03

Um, I think we touched on about some control patterns.

Dylan: 1:07:07

I think let's go with attachment play okay yeah, well yeah, play is a good one, because I think maybe I I assume that a lot of parents would have this is that it comes after the crying and it's kind of for us it was like a later discovery of, or for me I'll speak for me it's like, wow, we don't just have to do it with crying, we can play. How fun is this? And um, yeah, it's just, it's another way to release their emotions and it complements the crying. I know times when we haven't been able to like he hasn't fully released and hasn't felt safe or whatever, for any she's holding on to that cry or that as you said before, we'll play first and then do it yes.

Dylan: 1:07:48

But and we had we did have a time. We went camping and this happened a few times for maybe three days or so, where I'll tell you. One time was when I got back from my traveling. I was away for about a month and it was one of the best, best weeks of my life because of there was a whole thing the first half of year I was on a lot of work stuff and kind of I came back I'm like, okay, I'm not going away, I'm gonna. It was a very different presence. It's one of the best weeks of my life because I was in having so much fun with my boy. I was laughing, I was very present, I wasn't thinking about work, it was very, very loving time and that time, which probably was about, say, four days, he hardly cried, we were playing a lot and he was sleeping fantastic and he was blissful.

Dylan: 1:08:36

So I'm like this is cool, like, if we like, really playful and happy and it's so powerful isn't it.

Marion: 1:08:42

So I'd say it doesn't ever replace crying and raging, because it releases different feeling. There's an overlap, I think, but it doesn't release all the feelings that, um, that crying and raging do, and sometimes it's really important, but it's life-changing isn't it and same for us as adults.

Marion: 1:08:57

And I don't know if you um have heard me share, but I had a few quite traumatic things happen recently losses and deaths and had a lot of fear bubbling up. So with the marion method I go through these three types of feelings. So I was like doing my, doing my. You know, I'm not willing for x, y and z. I'm looking at my needs, like for information and so on about why the death happened. And then I'm still but I still could feel this like every time one of our, so one of our dogs died suddenly, and every time one of our dogs would just like jump off the bed. I was like you know what's going to happen. So I was like, okay, so I've.

Marion: 1:09:32

Clearly I did loads of crying, sobbing, crying, crying loads, and I was so healing. But then I thought, okay, so I'm going to do some laughter. So I've got this one particular video that really is just the exact balance of attention for me and I watched it and I've never done this before and I really watched it over and over again for three or four hours the first time and I just laughed and I'm sure you've experienced this, the power of laughter. I just laughed and laughed, and laughed, and laughed and laughed and I think I maybe did it again with a couple of hours. And and again the evidence is there is the dogs would be doing these things. That, no, the fear had been released.

Marion: 1:10:09

So laughter is particularly helpful for fear, releasing fear. And again, if you think about it, when we're laughing and we're playing, it actually signals safety, doesn't it?

Sole: 1:10:19

Because, if there's something dangerous.

Marion: 1:10:21

people aren't going to be playing, they're going to be being serious and being on the alert.

Sole: 1:10:26

So it's an incredibly powerful healing way and why is attachment play different from other types of play?

Marion: 1:10:35

uh yeah, because I mean we could play um, sorry, we. So it's different because it really understands exactly how babies and children and teens and adults heal from particular things. So it's really again this innate wisdom we have, but we can also go in with particular ways so we could play with our child for three hours and it wouldn't have the same effect that doing some separation games, for example, for 20 minutes, might have, because it's really tending to what is the exact thing that's going on for a child what are they needing to learn, what are they needing to prepare for, what are they needing to heal from? So Aletha Salter has this book called Attachment Play where she goes into the nine types of play. So, as well as trusting our baby and child, they will be innately doing this and I'm sure you see on instagram I often share these.

Marion: 1:11:33

You know people will be sharing babies crying when you you take the sticky tape off and back again, or just little things like that. Because for babies they're like what on earth is going on? Where's that noise coming from? How can that happen? So they're actually releasing a little bit, just low level, really low level a bit of fear, confusion, overwhelm. If we understand that, that you know we can support that. But there are also we can go in going okay, my child's hitting, biting, throwing. Yes, I can listen to crying and raging, but also I can go in with everyday power reversal games to support them to release the feelings of powerlessness and feel powerful.

Marion: 1:12:12

So it's like this tailored way of going. What exactly does my child need and how can I support them?

Sole: 1:12:18

yeah, and as they grow older, um, and if you haven't listened to feelings, then it's harder for the feelings to come up naturally, because there's like lots of control patterns. So the play can really help to bring up the feelings right exactly to loving limits and I wanted to ask you this like yeah, how do we connect for older children or toddlers and older children, the connection of attachment, play and loving limits to bring up the feelings? Yes, yeah.

Marion: 1:12:48

So yeah, it's really helpful to to loosen. I see it's like loosening up feelings that they're all a bit got a bit compacted in there and so just bringing in connection again. Connection is signaling to their system I'm safe doing. Then again, it might be like body contact games, like having loads of fun, or peekaboo, which is a separation game, or they're on the swing and every time we're pushing them and they're facing us, and every time we go backwards we pretend to jump way back and we say, oh, wow, you know, how did you do that? You're not going to do that again, are you? And they're laughing and laughing.

Marion: 1:13:24

What we'll often find is either they do feel beautifully relaxed, that you experience or half an hour later, suddenly, uh, they don't like the cup that you've given them, and then you give them another cup and then they spill the drink and then they're upset about that and then they you know they're just trying to find a pretext to to hang those feelings on, or they will fall over, or basically their wise system is like okay, alert, alert, alert.

Marion: 1:13:49

We have safety here. The feelings are bubbled up, they're present, let's let it all out. So it's really common and, I think, so helpful to hold in mind that if you've given your child this lovely attachment play and you've spent half an hour or you've been with them for half an hour, that suddenly after that they might have this massive big cry and rage. And if you're thinking, hang on a minute, I've been so present with you. But if you, you might feel frustrated. But if you say that really worked, because they feel safe now to allow this next chunk of feelings, we can great I'm here, you're beautiful, you're letting it all out, it's wonderful so beautiful and powerful.

Marion: 1:14:29

Yes, and loving limits. Did you want me to say something about that?

Sole: 1:14:31

Yes, I would love to. Yeah, I heard you a lot saying about how sometimes you can put a timer when you play and then when the timer goes off, then they will want to try to push to continue playing. But if you want to keep and put that loving limit like the playing time is finished and that might trigger the feelings to come, or things like that, that the loving limits after the play are the ones that might connect them to those feelings that are there bubbling up yes, exactly so loving limits are, they're not.

Marion: 1:15:04

So there's also limits, which also are loving, but they're not.

Marion: 1:15:07

They're called limits. So that's might be when we just say no, like you know, I'm not willing to play anymore, for example. But if we're clear that they've got accumulated feelings and they need, exactly as you say, they need something to push up against to feel safe, and that might be either they just want to keep reading them another 10 books at night, or they are hitting and biting and throwing, or they're basically showing by their behavior that they've got these feelings bubbling when we go in and I'm passionate about language, so there's no set language for loving, limits and aware parenting, but I love specific language. So I like to say, for example um, if it's a control pattern, so if they want to read you, to read them another 10 books, you might say, sweetheart, I'm going to read you one more book, and then I'm not willing to read anymore. And it's important to give information. So we might say, because I don't think it's the most helpful thing for you, and then, when you've read that one and they might say another one and you might say, yeah, so we give the love and compassion I really hear you want me to read you another book, sweetheart, and I'm not willing to read anymore because I don't think it's the most helpful thing for you right now and I'm right here and I'm listening, and they might keep asking. Then they might start crying, but please, you know, yeah, I hear you, sweetheart, you really want me to read you another one. But if we're clear in the beginning that the need isn't to read books, the need is to release the feelings, and then they have the opportunity.

Marion: 1:16:31

Whereas if it's with hitting, we can move in with a loving limit, which might be more, first of all, of course, preventing the hitting. That might be, holding the hand, doing the minimum possible to prevent the hitting to continue, hold their hand, not taking things out of the hand wherever possible, but just preventing it from continuing. And then we might offer the limit first. So we might say not willing for you to hit, sweetheart, because I'm here to keep everyone safe and I'm right here and I'm listening. And again they might.

Marion: 1:17:00

They might keep on going, they might be trying to wrestle and do all the things and again, if we remember, that's because they're in fight or flight. That's why they're hitting. They need us to communicate to them you are safe, you don't need to be in fight or flight, I've got you, I'm here to keep you safe. So we might need to keep repeating uh-uh, sweetheart, I don't know if I'd say uh-uh, I'm not willing for you to no, no, no, sweetheart, I'm not willing for you to hear I'm here to keep everyone safe and I'm right here and I'm listening.

Marion: 1:17:27

They might keep going, but you and you to me it's like really embodying this loving you know I am not willing for you to hit, sweetheart, and if they keep going because I am here to keep you safe and I am right here and I'm listening so they feel this sense of they can push up against you because you are there, powerful and loving, and they feel safe and they feel loved and they can have a massive big rage and cry, excuse me, they can have a massive big rage and cry, which is the feelings that was causing the hitting underneath, and they come out again, come out the other side, loving, connected.

Marion: 1:18:02

They want to go and you know love, whoever they were hitting with, that was us so like maybe, oh, I love you, mommy or daddy or you know, whatever it is, again, they don't need to be taught you shouldn't hit or be gentle or we don't hit in this family or all of that other stuff.

Sole: 1:18:16

They need support to feel safe so they can release the feelings that are causing the hitting and return to their true nature yeah, last week I went to the beach with our son, with some friends and their kids, their babies, and we were having a picnic at the beach and he was looking at the ocean and I could sense that he really wanted to go to the ocean. So I took him and he went in and then I was like, ok, it's getting a bit windy, I think it's a good time, let's go back. And so I took him from the water and he started crying and I was like, okay, I can sense that he's having some feelings right now, but I'm gonna give him, see, you know what if we spend a few more minutes in the water. And so I communicated this with him I can sense that you are having some feelings, but I'm willing for you to be a few more minutes in the water, but then after this we're gonna go back.

Sole: 1:19:12

And so I did take him out of the water after a few minutes and he had the biggest cry and he went back to the picnic side and all the babies were playing and they were like cry, he was crying very strongly and he sat down and continued crying and crying. And I think and yeah, some of these um mothers do not practice aware parenting. So, um, they were a bit surprised by, I think, the loving limit, uh, and then the fact that he would be sitting down, crying, just not moving, and crying and expressing himself and letting all out, and yeah, it was very beautiful to to see that he he's willing to do that.

Sole: 1:19:58

I'm willing to hold that space for him and, yeah, the connection that we have with each other.

Marion: 1:20:05

So beautiful, isn't? It Just brings so much more ease we have with each other so beautiful, isn't? It just brings so much more ease. Can you imagine if you were like, if you didn't know that information like oh my gosh, what do I do? When do I try?

Sole: 1:20:14

and you know it just makes things a lot. From the park I see a lot of parents. Yeah, oh the park.

Marion: 1:20:20

They're leaving the park a big struggle, right? Yeah, absolutely and again I see most of these things going back to that cultural piece when we understand like in a healthy indigenous culture they've been the part of the time they wouldn't need to leave, the part you know, the equivalent of the park. So it's like I think that's really helpful to hold in mind. So much of what is stressful about parenting is also because we live in a culture that isn't set up to support families okay, we go wrap up, but I got one more question then, so I've got one more and

Dylan: 1:20:52

mine is. The other day we were at a friend's house and, similar to what you were saying earlier, this boy he, what was it? He could not get. He wanted to play with this toy and what was it? It was um, do you remember, souls, something he he kept wanting and the father was like, should we give to him? And I was like, no, he doesn't.

Dylan: 1:21:13

Actually he didn't want thing, he just was agitated and he had tension and we could clearly see it and I almost wanted to take him to a room and sit with him of course, with the parents yeah, with the parents permission. Yeah. So I'm asking is that a good thing to do? He doesn't know me well at all. I met him seven, eight, nine times, but we haven't spent quality time together.

Marion: 1:21:35

Yes.

Dylan: 1:21:36

But I would be willing to be very present and loving to him and attempt to make him feel safe. How would that go?

Marion: 1:21:45

Again, I would really trust him and actually say to him you know, I see that you've got some feelings. I'm here to listen and I don't know if there was a big group. That's why you would leave.

Dylan: 1:21:55

I would probably even stay there, and just say, you know, I'm right here. I'm here with you. I wanted to leave because I think the parents wouldn't understand. Yeah, yeah.

Marion: 1:22:09

And so that's, of course, I think it's a, you know, tricky in terms of asking for their, are they willing? But in terms of a child, I would always, and whatever age, and again, this is the respect for you know, right from day dot with babies, asking them and letting them know and communicating to them, and I, you know it's, it's so respectful. So I would ask the child if, if the parents said yes, I would say yeah and again, trust that they, he, he, would let you know whether he had a yes or a no for that because I think also would there there would be the situation of him releasing emotions and crying a lot.

Dylan: 1:22:37

But would there also be, and I think I could tell, yes, he might be crying because I'm a stranger or he feels uncomfortable about me. That's another possible situation.

Marion: 1:22:47

Yeah, but again, I think he would show you that, like he might just, you know, he'd probably go and go to his parents or you know he would just come, he, you would. You would clearly tell from his behavior if he's, like you know, coming over to you or. But even sometimes, you know, I've experienced a couple of times with friends, children, of being with them, when they, the parents, were really stressed and they weren't crying with them and I'd be with them and they would be like pushing up against me and raging and it would seem like they didn't want to be with me. I mean, I wasn't holding them but they were pushing and pushing. And those two, I remember those two and they're now like in both in their late teens, and the connection that that one time with me.

Marion: 1:23:29

Actually it was a few times, but they would then ask about me years later. Every time I went to the house they'd be like you know. You could feel they were like you. You listen, we shared that you were there for me.

Dylan: 1:23:40

It created this depth of intimacy that was so powerful beautiful how to do it more, or communicate with your parents, and I mean the mother read the aware way a baby book.

Marion: 1:23:51

Yeah, they weren't practicing I think it's such a gift for for parent and I think again, in a healthy community, this is what we would do more of, and when I, when my daughter was a baby, I set up a little group for mothers and we would help each other in this way. We would listen to each other's babies and children.

Dylan: 1:24:08

We have definitely one friend and maybe her mother at one. Some say like we value other people who can listen to us feeling so much it's invaluable.

Marion: 1:24:20

And isn't it one of the most touching things to see that happen to our child for someone else to be present and to love them in that way? It's one of the most moving things. It's true community like if you can do that to my child. Yeah, that is a real exactly.

Marion: 1:24:34

You can hold emotional space and and go with those emotions with my baby, that's yeah that is a familiar exactly, and the bonds that creates and the safety that creates actually in the community, for then adults to start to go. Well, I see that you're listening to baby's things, or child's things. Well, I'm now actually starting to feel safe to go. I think I'm going to come and share with you too.

Dylan: 1:24:55

So it's really powerful. We intend to do that more, more community, yeah more community, okay we're going to end with kind of like a fire round questions, but I don't expect the answers to be that fire round, but we can make them as simple as you can, because they're probably big questions.

Marion: 1:25:11

You know me, I'm concise is not my forte, I like to be anyway, I will I will.

Sole: 1:25:16

I'm so willing to be concise, yeah you can explain as much as you want and need. So yeah, we want to um bust like some myths of common and conventional phenomenon of with raising children, babies and children. The first one is that teething is painful yes.

Marion: 1:25:39

So in my experience for the majority of babies, yes, when they're teething they might be, you know, might have the bit of the red cheek and a bit of dribbling. They might be a bit more wakeful, they might be a bit clingy, they might possibly cry a tiny bit more, but in general, unless there's a particular issue around teeth for that baby, um, they don't. But what? How we would see that is if, if we're calm and relaxed and we bash our foot into a table, we might go. Oh ouch, if we're boiling with unexpressed feelings and we back up work, our foot into table, we might go.

Marion: 1:26:16

That's what happens with teething, you know, and there's, there's some sensation, there's discomfort, but you know, when there's tension well we know this in birthing too that creates, that also does create pain as well. So of course that actually the more they cry, the less these things hurt. But also, a lot of the time is like the pretext and it's like okay, and because it's often a little bit more acceptable as well, oh, they're teething and you know they're so yeah a fat baby is a healthy baby.

Marion: 1:26:44

Yeah, it's really different, isn't it? And I know that with my daughter, who I did still feed a lot when she needed to cry while I was still working out for the first, even while we were listening to feelings, she still did have more that chubby baby look. And now I look at her, the pictures, and I, you know I have compassion for myself, but I can see it's like it's unexpressed feelings really, and so it's very common in the aware parenting community that babies aren't really that big chubby look because, um, yeah, they, they're not generally well they're. They might still be fed sometimes when they need to cry, but not as much as many babies are soleil's mother's group.

Dylan: 1:27:22

People from her mother's group are very surprised at how much she feeds the baby and they're like what? You only feed him once or twice a night, and they're the same age and they're like feeding him every what I don't know every 45 minutes every yeah.

Sole: 1:27:36

I have many parents who every 45 minutes yeah last week I shared that I only feed him twice during the day and they were all like quite in shock and, yeah, I had to meet those part of myself that felt, um, judged or doubted, you know, am I doing the right thing, yeah because, yeah, everyone else and again, so remember I was talking at the beginning about the different cultures and and in the cold cultures, very cold indigenous cultures there would often be long gaps of feeding.

Marion: 1:28:08

Almost everyone that I've ever worked with who's been more on the kind of I'm really passionate about this. I'm going to really aim to differentiate between hunger and feelings. I have about three people this week even said it to me. I am so surprised by not not only how many feelings they have, but actually how rarely they get hungry, because they're really observing exactly as we talked about in a very nuanced way and only feeding when they're getting that clear signal from the baby, whereas many other paradigms, like just whack them on the boob whenever you know. It's a very different approach, but it does require nuance and presence and our awareness.

Marion: 1:28:46

It's a lot.

Dylan: 1:28:47

And also you know they're better. It's not even for babies like to not eat so frequently to rest the digestion, and kind of not for adults, especially not the snack so much because you keep for mood. Yeah, when you use your own fattest fuel. That's for mood and for energy wow.

Marion: 1:29:08

And so that's what I really found with my children, because I was learning from them and when they're a bit older, they would get up and they often wouldn't eat for quite some time, and because it's really again based about only eating when you feel hungry, and I really realized that so much of this culture is like you know, get up and you have breakfast, right it's like most people do not feel hungry.

Marion: 1:29:26

Same with babies, you know with my daughter when I was new to this. She woke up. I'd always feed her With my son. He would wake up and I would discern whether he was hungry or not. And what that does is it helps them be able to discern between this is tiredness, this is hunger and this is painful feelings and most of us need to spend years kind of unraveling those because we got them confused just just have a thought, like how many patients I see who are eating because they're low on energy.

Dylan: 1:29:55

They want a quick organic chocolate, organic nuts, just a quick hit of energy, and then 45 minutes later again they want it all because they're emotionally ungrounded and they want sweets to ground themselves. So I thought just now, if a correlation how much?

Marion: 1:30:08

and that probably starts from how how our feeling, how our feelings are responded to.

Dylan: 1:30:14

As babies is often, then, how we will respond to our own feelings and so I always talks about my sweet addictions related to the way that my mother breastfed me, something like that.

Marion: 1:30:24

Yeah, not exactly addiction, some addiction okay you're so not alone, particularly uh mal and bimby. The organic raw chocolate addiction is is real.

Sole: 1:30:37

Yes, well connected to that one um cluster feeding when they are having a growth spurt between frequent feeding, usually in the evenings, like lots and lots and lots of feeding.

Marion: 1:30:51

So, from an aware parenting perspective, we would see that as, and particularly if there's a developmental spurt. It's like we said at the beginning they have a lot of big feelings because they're feeling frustrated, because they're learning this new thing, so they have more feelings to tell us and if we're not listening to those feelings, we will need to keep suppressing them. So they keep trying to tell us hey, I feel really frustrated and this is really hard, and we keep feeding them and feeding them and feeding them for hours yeah, for.

Sole: 1:31:18

Hours it did happen to me on those first three. Yeah, first three months yeah, nights of like one, two hours feeding and I was like this is not okay, oh I hear you lovely.

Marion: 1:31:30

I'm sending you so much love. Yeah, I did that with my daughter in those first few months too. But I was like, oh, this is because I'm an incubator baby. I didn't get breastfed at all. I was on my own all the time. I was like, great, you know, I don't mind if this is helpful I'll fit in. I was feeding her for hours every evening as well, all the time. So, yeah, so it's interesting, isn't it?

Marion: 1:31:48

our experience of it depends on our past experience the fourth one is sleep regressions yeah, same thing, it's the same cause, basically, unless there's something else going on, which of course, we always need to check out physiologically and in terms of the environment and you know blue light and emfs and all of those kinds of stuff, but in general, even those don't matter. If a baby or a child is expressing enough feelings, they will sleep restfully. If they're waking up more frequently, they've got feelings that they're actually trying to say hey, I've got feelings, hey, I've got feelings. Or if they're left alone, of course they might be signaling, of course, that they need closeness, because babies need closeness to feel safe to feel relaxed, like the fourth month sleep regression.

Marion: 1:32:37

When they stop sleeping or they start waking up every half an hour, every 45 minutes yeah, so it's also not any developmental stage, but usually by that time again, it's like four months of accumulated feelings so they start going. Okay, these feelings are sitting in my body every time I move into light sleep again. The feelings are here again because I'm they're trying to release them so they feel relaxed, so they keep waking up to go.

Dylan: 1:33:02

Okay, you're gonna listen to me now, so the baby wants to relax so he can sleep. The baby wants to relax.

Marion: 1:33:09

I mean, that again is our innate biological wisdom the more relaxed we are, the more we've if we're in fight or flight, basically they're in fight or flight, they're in hyper arousal. That's not. We can't be digesting in the day and we can't be having restorative sleep in the night if we can't see wake up. Hyper arousal, dissociation, hyper arousal dissociation. Whereas if they have a lovely big cry in our arms before sleep, through all those cycles, they relax, they have a beautiful restful sleep. They will sleep far longer than most people think, while co-sleeping, not on their own, and they get that restorative sleep.

Dylan: 1:33:45

They're relaxed, refreshed, they're happy, you know we've pat ourselves on the back of when our baby has slept from something like 10 till 5 over all night and like a few times and it was just like, yeah, it was really good to see yeah, he can probably sleep even longer than that.

Marion: 1:34:05

Yes, oh yeah. Yeah, we know that when he's waking up.

Sole: 1:34:08

The feelings are there.

Marion: 1:34:10

Yes, yeah, definitely it's always more, isn't there? There's always more. And also being kind with ourselves.

Dylan: 1:34:16

Exactly yeah, we're doing the best we can and sometimes I'm happy to suppress the feelings at night, because yeah, okay, I'll deal with them in the morning exactly, it might not be as as to the surface, but yeah, I prefer to sleep now. Yeah, absolutely.

Marion: 1:34:30

I generally recommend to people because most people don't want to listen to feelings in the night and you don't ever need to and some, some babies, might have a particular bit of birth trauma they want to express like it happened at 2 am and they want to express it. But in general we can listen in the day, particularly in the evening.

Sole: 1:34:45

We don't ever need to listen he did have a lot, that he was born at 11 in the night and he doesn't want to reveal this, so we don't talk about this, um that's going to be a secret.

Marion: 1:35:00

Well, if you don't cut that out, everyone's going to be over?

Sole: 1:35:03

what tell us? Um, oh, I could say he was born at night time anyway, oh, you don't want to reveal the time the astrological the last two are being overtired and fighting sleep yeah, it's the same.

Marion: 1:35:22

So overtired is generally seen when a baby's tired and they're either crying, fussing and inverted commas, arching their back so again, rather than is like, uh, they're overtired. It's like no, they're tired and they're doing what they innately know how to do, which is they're saying. Basically, I've got some feelings to express so that I can release the stress from my body, so I can feel relaxed and have a beautiful restorative sleep, and I see so many parents come to where parenting. You've had these beliefs about being overtired and I've heard such painful stories where people like, just like not doing anything else in their life because they're just. They're like why is my baby always overtired? Why aren't they sleeping? It's really, really painful and, um, yeah, just that's a very fundamental yeah.

Dylan: 1:36:12

Black and white, aware, parenting kind of thing, yeah but it doesn't make any sense to me.

Marion: 1:36:15

I was reading some stuff just once. Like it doesn't make sense to me. Like just makes sense. If you're tired, you can we know that when we're tired.

Marion: 1:36:24

We get more reactive. We got our feelings bubble up because that's our innate wisdom. Let it out so we can relax. What was the other thing? Overtired and fighting sleep. Again, this is my saying. You've heard me say this a million times. I'm sure they're not fighting sleep in general. They might want closeness. That's different. But it's us fighting their innate relaxation response. They're trying to cry, they're trying to rage, they're trying to be rambunctious the two-year-olds trying to be rambunctious and laugh. And we're fighting their innate relaxation response beautiful.

Sole: 1:36:57

They're so wise.

Dylan: 1:36:58

They're so wise, thank you so much thanks, so much, oh, thank you, it's so fun oh yeah, we forgot the dinner chariot at the beginning. Oh yeah, that's okay, I I purposely left it. One of the questions we ask all our guests is what did you do this morning? What's your? What is your daily practice?

Marion: 1:37:18

what did I do this morning was slightly different because I was finishing editing my book to get it off to the um typesetter. But every day I like to go out in the garden. Well, I, yeah, okay, so I've got to. In the morning, when I first wake up, I do my lovingness and willingness practice so I connect in with unconditional love from my inner, loving presences to me and my body, and then I connect with what I'm wanting and willing for for the day, and then every day, a bit later on, I go out in the garden with the dogs and I, uh, have a swim and just hang out in the garden for a bit yeah, so you've got a book coming out on sleep

Dylan: 1:38:00

where you've connected, sleep with a lot of traditional wisdom and indigenous wisdom.

Marion: 1:38:05

Yes, do you have a name for the book. Yes, it's called sound sleep and secure attachment with aware parenting right, and that will be coming out when it comes out, probably, probably by the I'm. I'm all into like birth as well. Books are like birth I like it's. It's. It's kind of it's going to roughly come out, probably by the end of the month, but it might be beginning of next month, very soon, yeah, 2024, maybe I'll be definitely, it's definitely coming like a baby. It's definitely coming in the next month or so. Okay great.

Dylan: 1:38:33

So for that you can see marion rose.

Marion: 1:38:38

Yes, it's marionrosenet and um, yes, on instagram I have. I've got three. I've got the aware Aware Parenting podcast, aware Parenting and Marion Rose, with some underscores.

Sole: 1:38:49

But anyway, go and find the other ones. Underscore Marion, underscore, Rose, underscore. That's it.

Dylan: 1:38:54

And then podcast is called the Aware Parenting podcast. And there's like over how many episodes?

Marion: 1:38:59

Yeah, just coming up to the 200th and just coming up to the 3 million plays as well this month.

Sole: 1:39:08

Wow, that's amazing, I know, I know I know I'm incredulous like a little while we're parenting.

Marion: 1:39:13

Like you know, when I was practicing, practicing it was like, oh, hardly anyone was willing to look into it.

Dylan: 1:39:19

Now it's because that's what was going to be one of my questions first when we spoke about it yeah like how important it is we were speaking about, why it's so important for people to listen. Yeah, look, I'm an outsider, I'm not nearly in the parenting and birth world as you two, but it's like it's such a common sense, fundamental, powerful thing. How do you see it in this whole holistic health, whole parenting industry?

Dylan: 1:39:44

I almost I will put aware parenting in this title, but I kind of want to call it something about sleep or just something a bit more aware parenting. Sometimes somebody said it's like oh, I've tried conscious parenting, because they hear the word aware like or they just think it's about being aware rather than it's actually really fundamentally different than just about every other parenting paradigm so, yeah, how do you see it right now in becoming more you know, sharing with people, spreading it?

Marion: 1:40:11

yeah, I really see this, this the more readiness it's like. Then this next generation, like you are, is like it's so much more, whereas in in my day, when I was starting, it was like it's like squeezing blood out of a stone a little bit, and there might be an occasional person, and now it I really sense this momentum that is happening, although we've always got the disconnected domination culture that's going to be fighting against that happening, but yeah love it, the ddc, the ddc but we've got their number and we've got love on our side so yes thank you maria thank you so much.

Marion: 1:40:47

You really enjoyed it. Thank you for all that you're doing and thank you for being being willing to have this. Yeah, this platform on your platform for a web parenting to be shared, yeah, and I want to say.

Sole: 1:40:56

I've been listening to marion for a long time and from listening to your voice and reading even your book, I could feel your pure, loving, compassionate heart. But now, having him in front of me and in front of us, it makes it more real and it's. I want to thank you for everything you do and everything you spread in the world. It's so powerful and you're really changing the world thank you.

Marion: 1:41:21

Thank you so much beautiful.

Sole: 1:41:28

Yeah, it's not a there's so much more we can do.

Marion: 1:41:31

I know it's so many hours. I said to.

Sole: 1:41:35

Dylan, we would have to do many more of these. Let's start with an intro.

Dylan: 1:41:40

We haven't done any, not really, I mean. We've just our audience, and community don't really know. We've had a baby. I mean, they're kind of starting to slightly now, but we've kept it quiet, so it's very different yeah, we're quite private.

Marion: 1:41:57

Like two years ago, the instagram went on a bit of a boom, oh really oh, it went like, because you've got a lot of yeah, you went a bit viral so and we're quite private people, so we decided we didn't want to share him in social media or even like share that I was pregnant, like it was a bit old, yeah I so understand that, yeah, yeah, but I think it's it's so important to share this and share from I said to d, from our own experience, particularly when people know you and trust you and go oh okay, yeah, it makes a difference and you're going to, you want to become an instructor as well.

Sole: 1:42:38

Oh, yes, oh my God, yes, that's so exciting, since I started reading the Aware Baby and then your book, I was like, oh, I want to share this so powerful. The aware baby in the new book, I was like, oh, I want to share this, it's so powerful. And since practicing with our child is just so powerful and, as I said, you're really changing the world, so I want to be part of that.

Marion: 1:43:01

oh, I'm so excited, yes, amazing. Do you? You know Caitlin, then Caitlin, howe Caitlin? Yes, she's here in Mullum as well and she's doing my instructor mentoring course, so I'm just imagining you might be interested.

Sole: 1:43:17

So what Instructor mentoring course?

Marion: 1:43:19

Yeah, the aware parenting instructor.